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Old 02-10-2014, 04:27 PM   #31
klompton2
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Default Re: Sam Langford discusses his Jack Johnson fight and ducking

Ive got to say, I get tired of these arguments in regards to SOME black fighters whereby the thesis is "he was never given the opportunities..." Just what opportunities should Tate have gotten? The opportunity to get hjghly publicized by acting as the chief sparring partner for years for Dempsey? Check? The opportunity to prove to be one of the best black fighters of his era by fighting guys like Langford, Wills, Jeanette, etc. Check. The opportunity to prove you are a viable contender by facing highly ranked white fighters like Gunboat Smith, check. Why should ANY fighter be GIVEN opportunities? You TAKE your opportunities in the ring and Tate could do that only half the time and not always against the best opposition. The fact is that Tate was a sparring partner level fighter and nothing more. He was a journeyman, meaning he knew his craft but never excelled at it. He was never better than a half dozen or more talented black heavyweights or a half dozen or more talented white heavyweights. His record says it all, he has a 50/50 win, loss, draw record. Trying to build him up as something more than he is to support your argument is pretty weak. Particularly in light of the footage we have him, the most telling being him completely timid and snowed under by the nearly 1 foot shorter and 53 pounds lighter Kid Norfolk. As pointed out above, his success against Langford (which was limited) came after Langford was past his expiration date.
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Old 02-10-2014, 04:34 PM   #32
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Default Re: Sam Langford discusses his Jack Johnson fight and ducking

USA!
USA!
USA!

Somebody is actually friends with guy and admits it? Pretty cool for Joe J
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Old 02-10-2014, 05:39 PM   #33
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Default Re: Sam Langford discusses his Jack Johnson fight and ducking

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Originally Posted by frank View Post
FIRST, I DON'T CARE OF THEIR EXPERIENCE LEVELS OR THE WORD "PROBABLY",HE BEAT HIM WHEN HE WAS A FULL 3 DIVISIONS HIGHER IN WEIGHT(CAN YOU IMAGINE THAT HAPPENING TODAY?)SECOND,DON'T TELL ME WHAT TO DO, DICKHEAD! THIRD, I DON'T GIVE A SHIT ABOUT THE WORDS "MEDIOCRITY"! THE POINT,OBVIOUSLY, WAS LANGFORD WAS SUPERIOR AND I AM SURE THE PEOPLE'S CHOICE TO FIGHT JOHNSON.WHY DIDN'T JOHNSON(SUCH A PRIDEFUL MAN) STOP THE DEBATING OF WHO IS BETTER AND FIGHT SAM? THE COLOR LINE? SAM TRIED LIKE HELL FOR A REMATCH.MAYBE BECAUSE NOW HE WAS BIGGER, STRONGER,POSSIBLY PUNCHED HARDER? JEANNETTE FOUGHT BOTH AND CONSIDERED SAM BETTER.HARRY WILLS THOUGHT IN HIS PRIME (SAM),TO BE INVINCIBLE.FIGHTER'S(WHO HAVE FOUGHT SAM)OPINIONS MEAN MORE TO ME THAN YOUR PONTIFICATION OR COMMANDS! YOU DON'T DUCK A SURE THING UNLESS YOU FEEL THERE IS A GREAT CHANCE OF LOSING.NONE OF US KNOW THE REAL FACTS OF ALL THE RECORDS OR SPECIFIC DETAILS OF FIGHTS OR FIGHTERS(FROM THE PAST) I.E. WAS HE MOTIVATED,THROWING THE FIGHT,CARRYING AN OPPONENT,DRINKING TOO MUCH,BLIND IN ONE EYE,WRONG WEIGHT CLASS, ETC.WE CAN ONLY READ VARYING SOURCES(WHICH I HAVE) AND FORM OUR OWN CONCLUSIONS,GENIUS! I BELIEF THAT SAM WAS AT LEAST EQUAL TO JOHNSON,AND BASED ON HIS(JOHNSON'S)ACTIONS,HE FOUND HIM TO BE A SERIOUS THREAT(NOW THAT HE IS IN JACK'S WEIGHT CLASS),AND BE AVOIDED AT ALL COSTS.BY THE WAY "piece of trash." IS NOT A FACT JUST YOUR OPINION,UNDERSTAND? RESEARCH "OPINION" FOOL!
Look I'll try just once more.
Langford was Johnson's standout challenger.Head and shoulders above the others figuratively if not literally.Tate was a C level sparring partner. Langford improved after his fight with Johnson as he gained weight and strength, Clay Moyle estimates his optimum weight to be around 175lbs that would give him an increase of 19lbs over his estimated weight in 1906 ,when he fought Johnson . Similarly Johnson improved as he too gained weight and strength.he was about 185/7lbs against Langford in 1906 , he was at his best ,in his opinion .against Jeffries, he was then 208lbs that is an increase of 23lbs. Factor in that when they did fight Langford had more ring experience. If they had fought when Johnson was champion he would have the confidence of that to add to his added ring rounds and weight.

I've explained Jeannette's stance on Jack Johnson,and there are many verified quotes to support it. Wills was a sparring partner for Johnson briefly but was sacked because he could not stand the pace ,so another less than objective opinion.

Now digest that and stop with the silly insults you are only mugging yourself. In case you haven't noticed people are laughing at you.

Last edited by mcvey; 02-11-2014 at 03:07 AM.
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Old 02-10-2014, 05:44 PM   #34
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Default Re: Sam Langford discusses his Jack Johnson fight and ducking

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Originally Posted by klompton2 View Post
Welcome back to the forum JOE JENNETTE

USA!
Where do they come from?
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Old 02-10-2014, 08:11 PM   #35
frank
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Default Re: Sam Langford discusses his Jack Johnson fight and ducking

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Originally Posted by mcvey View Post
look i'll try just once more.
Langford was johnson's standout challenger.head and shoulders above the others figuratively if not literally.tate was a c level sparring partner. Langford improved after his fight with johnson as he gained weight and strength, clay moyle estimates his optimum weight to be around 175lbs that would give him an increase of 19lbs over his estimated weight in 1906 ,when he fought johnson . Similarly, johnson improved as he too gained weight and strength.he was about 185/7lbs against langford in 1906 , he was at his best ,in his opinion against jeffries, he was 208lbs that is an increase of 23lbs. Factor in that when they did fight langford had more ring experience. If they had fought when johnson was champion he would have the confidence of that to add to his added ring rounds and weight.

I've explained jeannette's stance on jack johnson,and there are many verified quotes to support it. Wills was a sparring partner for johnson briefly but was sacked because he could not stand the pace ,soanother less than objective opinion.

Now digest that and stop with the silly insults you are only mugging yourself. In case you haven't noticed people are laughing at you.
First,you starting insulting me with "go research" and having an overall condescending tone,not me. What people laughing? The voices in your head? If people are mocking me (in secret code) **** the cowards.Again,i will say it,tate was not great(i shared some one's else thoughts who felt he was above average)that were not mine, but(i feel)his huge size(recently,like valuev) would have been a great advantage over a much smaller man,unless of course very skilled and strong,as sam was.my observation was not meant to grade tate but show sam's greatness...do you finally get what i am saying? It is pretty simple.based upon on moyle's observation's you are implying that johnson improved at a similar rate as sam's correct? Then,this would prove a similiar outcome as in their first meeting? Maybe, we cannot know just guess correct? Let me add this to my reasoning.johnson said a fight between two colored fighters wouldn't draw flies,less prize money.fair enough,then why did he choose battling jim johnson(or to start fighting "colored" fighters ) instead of the highly touted langford? You know the people's,sportswriters choice? The one he easily beat and was certain of his own dominance? The one who had been endlessly begging for a rematch? By the way, i read sam's best weight was closer to just over 180lb(like marciano) the main thing (in my humble opinion) in their rematch would be conditioning and if sam can get and work inside and johnson jabbing and moving more.they both were courageous,possessed good chins, were super strong,hard punching and clever. I think the fact sam desperately wanted the fight(fact) and johnson didn't(fact), says it all.to all the haters(**** off)!

Last edited by frank; 02-10-2014 at 08:27 PM.
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Old 02-11-2014, 04:15 AM   #36
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Default Re: Sam Langford discusses his Jack Johnson fight and ducking

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Originally Posted by frank View Post
First,you starting insulting me with "go research" and having an overall condescending tone,not me. What people laughing? The voices in your head? If people are mocking me (in secret code) **** the cowards.Again,i will say it,tate was not great(i shared some one's else thoughts who felt he was above average)that were not mine, but(i feel)his huge size(recently,like valuev) would have been a great advantage over a much smaller man,unless of course very skilled and strong,as sam was.my observation was not meant to grade tate but show sam's greatness...do you finally get what i am saying? It is pretty simple.based upon on moyle's observation's you are implying that johnson improved at a similar rate as sam's correct? Then,this would prove a similiar outcome as in their first meeting? Maybe, we cannot know just guess correct? Let me add this to my reasoning.johnson said a fight between two colored fighters wouldn't draw flies,less prize money.fair enough,then why did he choose battling jim johnson(or to start fighting "colored" fighters ) instead of the highly touted langford? You know the people's,sportswriters choice? The one he easily beat and was certain of his own dominance? The one who had been endlessly begging for a rematch? By the way, i read sam's best weight was closer to just over 180lb(like marciano) the main thing (in my humble opinion) in their rematch would be conditioning and if sam can get and work inside and johnson jabbing and moving more.they both were courageous,possessed good chins, were super strong,hard punching and clever. I think the fact sam desperately wanted the fight(fact) and johnson didn't(fact), says it all.to all the haters(**** off)!

There is film of Tate fighting Kid Norfolk, a fighter not dissimilar in stature to Langford, he looks decidedly average.
Beating him did nothing to enhance Langford's reputation .

Your thesis is fundamentally flawed because it states Langford was the people's choice, he wasn't, the peoples choice was any big man who was white .


Why on earth do you think the White Hope Era started in the first place?

It was not just Johnson who said two blacks don't draw ,both leading promoters Barney Curley, and Jim Coffroth stated it publicly .

I understood your stance immediately I just didn't agree with it, as I said if you had dug for more information you would have not have quoted that ridiculous little book purporting to be Jack Johnson 's biography ,originally entitled Mes Combats, it is an oft translated and re- translated mish mash of inaccuracies and bull shit that has absolutely no credibility among anyone who has any pretensions to a semi-serious study of its subject.
It is patently obvious Langfrod improved after 1906 it is equally obvious so did Johnson no attempt has been made by me to quantify how much improvement each man made.
You started your input in this thread with the opening line

"Sam fought jack johnson when he was comparatively green and gave him fits".

Everybody on here knows that is bullshit,everybody but you.

Langford was the more experienced fighter, and was totally outclassed by Johnson as several ringside reports,[readily available for those who can be bothered to look for them,] show .


Here is a ringside report of their fight.

[Only registered and activated users can see links. ]


No" fits" provided by Mr Langford there.

Now you've learned something from my "condescension " haven't you?

The natural response to your absurd statement was to say," go and do some research," I made it , and I reiterate it now.

Johnson chose to fight Battling Jim Johnson because ;

1.He thought he would give him a useful workout before tackling Frank Moran with whom he had already formed a verbal agreement for a defence.
2.At 35 and fat,having not fought in a year and a half, Johnson did not want too threatening a challenger.
3.Battling Jim was in France at the same time as Johnson.He was touring Europe and his last 4 fights had either been in France or the UK.

I'll go by Clay Moyle's assessment of Langford's optimum weight where did you get your info?

You finished your post with the words f**k off ,very mature, no wonder you are the butt of jokes.

Why do you think posters beleive you are the retard Jennette, and type "USA" in response to your posts?

Those that resort quickly to insults do so because they have neither the vocabulary nor the wit to compete on even terms with others.

Last edited by mcvey; 02-11-2014 at 07:10 AM.
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Old 02-11-2014, 08:49 AM   #37
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Default Re: Sam Langford discusses his Jack Johnson fight and ducking

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when johnson beat langford in their 1906 match, jack weighed 187 pounds to samís 156. Johnson probably did beat sam soundly but realized that langford possessed quickness and power to the extent that when sam reached 180 pounds or so, he [johnson] preferred not to risk a fight with him. when johnson finally did agree to take on a black opponent in late 1913, it was not sam langford, the current colored heavyweight champion, that he gave the title shot to. Instead, johnson chose battling jim johnson, a mediocrity who, in 1910, had lost to langford and had a draw and loss via knock out to sam mcvey, another former colored champion.when it was in his power to give an african american a title shot, jack johnson refused to grant that privilege to sam langford, the fighter who after former champ [Only registered and activated users can see links. ] (a man langford said he would not face when jeff was in the prime of his career), had to be considered the #1 contender in the heavyweight division. Johnson beat jeffries but ducked langford, likely as he feared losing his title.


Many people consider the failure of langford to secure a shot at the heavyweight title one of the greatest injustices of american sports.
^^^this.
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Old 02-11-2014, 10:59 AM   #38
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Default Re: Sam Langford discusses his Jack Johnson fight and ducking

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^^^this.
As I've pointed out and provided proof for, there is no "probably", Johnson gave Langford a good beating.If Jim Johnson was a mediocrity how come he beat Jeannette twice and drew with him twice?
If he was a mediocrity, how come he drew with Langford twice?
How come he drew with McVey kod Arthur Pelkey and drew with and kod Jeff Clark?
If he was a mediocritiy how good were they?

I know you won't answer,I'm just highlighting how ridiculous you are .
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Old 02-11-2014, 11:24 AM   #39
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Default Re: Sam Langford discusses his Jack Johnson fight and ducking

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As I've pointed out and provided proof for, there is no "probably", Johnson gave Langford a good beating.If Jim Johnson was a mediocrity how come he beat Jeannette twice and drew with him twice?
If he was a mediocrity, how come he drew with Langford twice?
How come he drew with McVey kod Arthur Pelkey and drew with and kod Jeff Clark?
If he was a mediocritiy how good were they?

I know you won't answer,I'm just highlighting how ridiculous you are .
If you cared for your reputation as a historian, you would be quiet on this topic. Battling Jim's record is very spotty. You are what your records says you are. In Battling Jim's case he was big and durable, which was enough to give name veterans on the decline of their career a tough time.

If Johnson cared about the dubious draw, he gives a re-match. That did not happen in either of his draws / news decision draws as champion!

Back to point, there are numerous offers out there in the press for Johnson to meet Jeannette. Here are just a few

[Only registered and activated users can see links. ]

[Only registered and activated users can see links. ]

[Only registered and activated users can see links. ]
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Old 02-11-2014, 11:25 AM   #40
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Default Re: Sam Langford discusses his Jack Johnson fight and ducking

The first one linked here is the one Johnson accepted and signed for.
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Old 02-11-2014, 02:01 PM   #41
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Default Re: Sam Langford discusses his Jack Johnson fight and ducking

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Originally Posted by Mendoza View Post
If you cared for your reputation as a historian, you would be quiet on this topic. Battling Jim's record is very spotty. You are what your records says you are. In Battling Jim's case he was big and durable, which was enough to give name veterans on the decline of their career a tough time.

If Johnson cared about the dubious draw, he gives a re-match. That did not happen in either of his draws / news decision draws as champion!

Back to point, there are numerous offers out there in the press for Johnson to meet Jeannette. Here are just a few

[Only registered and activated users can see links. ]

[Only registered and activated users can see links. ]

[Only registered and activated users can see links. ]
I'm not a historian you fool, I'm just a boxing fan, as to my reputation I'm only concerned with the opinions of those I respect." Big enough to give name veterans on the decline of their career,[ in decline surely]?a tough time." Langford was 29 btw Johnson was just 19 when he drew with McVey , Mcvey was 26. Did either Jeannette,Langford or McVey have broken arms when they drew with Jim Johnson?

Oh here is the Langford quote where he states Dempsey is the greatest fighter he ever saw NOT Jeffries.

"Sam Langford, when asked how Harry Wills (whom he fought 18 times in his career) would do against Jack Dempsey, said in the June 5, 1922, Atlanta Constitution "Well if he ever fights Dempsey my money will be on the present champion. Dempsey is the greatest fighter I have ever seen. He hits twice as hard as Jim Jeffries and is as fast in the ring as James J. Corbett."

Last edited by mcvey; 02-11-2014 at 02:15 PM.
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Old 02-11-2014, 02:24 PM   #42
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Default Re: Sam Langford discusses his Jack Johnson fight and ducking

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Originally Posted by mcvey View Post
I'm not a historian you fool, I'm just a boxing fan, as to my reputation I'm only concerned with the opinions of those I respect." Big enough to give name veterans on the decline of their career,[ in decline surely]?a tough time." Langford was 29 btw Johnson was just 19 when he drew with McVey , Mcvey was 26. Did either Jeannette,Langford or McVey have broken arms when they drew with Jim Johnson?

Oh here is the Langford quote where he states Dempsey is the greatest fighter he ever saw NOT Jeffries.

"Sam Langford, when asked how Harry Wills (whom he fought 18 times in his career) would do against Jack Dempsey, said in the June 5, 1922, Atlanta Constitution "Well if he ever fights Dempsey my money will be on the present champion. Dempsey is the greatest fighter I have ever seen. He hits twice as hard as Jim Jeffries and is as fast in the ring as James J. Corbett."
Didn't Langford beat Jim Johnson a fair few times?

And you keep on pointing out over and over how Jack Johnson gave Sam a good beating, but the link that you provided me in another thread today features various newspaper reports from the fight that all state Langford was at least 35 pounds lighter than Jack.

Do you no think that had a significant impact on the outcome of the fight?
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Old 02-11-2014, 02:43 PM   #43
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Default Re: Sam Langford discusses his Jack Johnson fight and ducking

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Didn't Langford beat Jim Johnson a fair few times?

And you keep on pointing out over and over how Jack Johnson gave Sam a good beating, but the link that you provided me in another thread today features various newspaper reports from the fight that all state Langford was at least 35 pounds lighter than Jack.

Do you no think that had a significant impact on the outcome of the fight?
Yes he did. You asked me for a genuine primary source that gives the real account of the Johnson v Langford fight I gave you one. Johnson was probably about 185/7 lbs Langford around`156/160 according to Pollack .We know Johnson was not scaling in the 190s' in 1906 35 lbs disparity is an exaggeration. Yes I think Johnson was too big and strong for him and ,as he gained another 30lbs in muscle himself plus more experience.I think that, if he was fit, that would always be the case. You may well disagree, its your prerogative. keep in mind Langford gave weight and a beating to Wills a couple of times, he just couldn't do it to Johnson in 1906.

Last edited by mcvey; 02-11-2014 at 06:08 PM.
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Old 02-11-2014, 02:55 PM   #44
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Default Re: Sam Langford discusses his Jack Johnson fight and ducking

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where do they come from?
usa?
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Old 02-11-2014, 06:01 PM   #45
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usa?
Priceless
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