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Old 03-03-2008, 04:12 PM   #16
guilalah
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Default Re: So who thinks Peter Jackson would have beaten Sullivan?

Hard to call if Sullivan takes Jackson on right after Kilrain and lets Muldoon keep bossing him. But I don't know if Sullivan had it in him to buckle down any more.
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Old 03-03-2008, 05:15 PM   #17
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Default Re: So who thinks Peter Jackson would have beaten Sullivan?

A point to consider, Jackson had trouble with brawlers eg Fallon, Lambert, Goddard.
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Old 03-03-2008, 05:16 PM   #18
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Default Re: So who thinks Peter Jackson would have beaten Sullivan?

Quote:
Originally Posted by mattdonnellon
A point to consider, Jackson had trouble with brawlers eg Fallon, Lambert, Goddard.
Is Sullivan really a brawler?

I would say more a boxer puncher type.
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Old 03-03-2008, 05:53 PM   #19
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Default Re: So who thinks Peter Jackson would have beaten Sullivan?

Quote:
Originally Posted by Mendoza
Are you sure? Jackson had not lost a fight in 14+ years, trained hard, looked good in camp, and was in shape. Going into this fight, no one though Jackson was " absolutely done . "

It was not Jackson's age that made him lose, it was opting to fight hard early. His chin did not hold up to Jeffries power.
Every account i've come across details that he was suffering from TB.

That would do it!
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Old 03-03-2008, 06:13 PM   #20
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Default Re: So who thinks Peter Jackson would have beaten Sullivan?

Quote:
Originally Posted by Mendoza
Not so Matt. Corbett offered Jackson a re-match as the champion. The two meet in the hotel can could not agree to the venue. Corbett wanted to fight in Jacksonville or New Oreleans, as he was famous there for his fights over Mitchel and Sullivan. Jackson did not want to fight in the south and balked...
Jackson was not the undisputed #1 contender - it seems Goddard too was seen as having some sort of claim. But not for Corbett himself, who declared the day after the Sullivan fight:

"Jackson I consider has the first and best claim to my attention...I consider he is alone entitiled to my attention." Charley Mitchell was a "stiff...unworthy of my notice." (Times-Democrat)

Four days later:

"Corbett says the man above all others in the world that he wants to meet is Charley Mitchell." (Daily Picayune)

I'd suggest it's reasonable to suggest that Corbett's "friends in the south" had been in his ear about the colour line. But Sullivan may have had an impact on his thinking too:

"My advice to him is that if he want to keep [the title] he better not meet the ****** Jackson. If he he ever does he will get licked." (New York Herald).

Mendoza, as to the question of Jackson "not want[ing] to fight in the south", things are more complex. Peerless George Dixon had lifted the featherweight title the same week that Corbett defeated Sullivan - beating a white fighter in the process, I think in New Orleans. This did not go down well in the south:

"They [black Americans] are loudly proclaiming the superiority of their race, to the great scandal of the whites, who declare that they should not be encouraged to entertain even feelings of equality, much less superiority. The Olymipc Club Management have about decided not to hold any more coloured contests." (New York Herald)

The Herald went on to say that contests of this type were viable in the north where "there are very few negroes" but that this type of contest in the south "could only arouse bitter feelings between the races which will lead to bloody affrays".

The Times Democrat continues in an even stronger vein calling the decision to match a black and a white in that part of the world "a mistake". These are objective judges (As far as it goes) and certainly not "pro Jackson" reports - it seems to me that trying to arrange this match in the south, in these circumstances, is not a reasonable thing to do. Jackson would need to be insane to fight in the south in these circumstances.

We all know that Corbett's decision to fight Mitchell instead of Jackson is a joke, I think Corbett's insistance that the fight go ahead in the south is as clear a dodge as has taken place in the titles history, and I personally would have seen Jackson as favourite going in.
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Old 03-03-2008, 06:25 PM   #21
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Default Re: So who thinks Peter Jackson would have beaten Sullivan?

Quote:
Originally Posted by McGrain

Mendoza, as to the question of Jackson "not want[ing] to fight in the south", things are more complex. Peerless George Dixon had lifted the featherweight title the same week that Corbett defeated Sullivan - beating a white fighter in the process, I think in New Orleans. This did not go down well in the south:

"They [black Americans] are loudly proclaiming the superiority of their race, to the great scandal of the whites, who declare that they should not be encouraged to entertain even feelings of equality, much less superiority. The Olymipc Club Management have about decided not to hold any more coloured contests." (New York Herald)

The Herald went on to say that contests of this type were viable in the north where "there are very few negroes" but that this type of contest in the south "could only arouse bitter feelings between the races which will lead to bloody affrays".

The Times Democrat continues in an even stronger vein calling the decision to match a black and a white in that part of the world "a mistake". These are objective judges (As far as it goes) and certainly not "pro Jackson" reports - it seems to me that trying to arrange this match in the south, in these circumstances, is not a reasonable thing to do. Jackson would need to be insane to fight in the south in these circumstances.

We all know that Corbett's decision to fight Mitchell instead of Jackson is a joke, I think Corbett's insistance that the fight go ahead in the south is as clear a dodge as has taken place in the titles history, and I personally would have seen Jackson as favourite going in.
The bottom line is this. Corbett made the offer to fight. The two spent a night in a hotel trying to arrange the match, and Corbett wanted it because he felt he was the better in the first contest. I read the round by round report of Jackson vs Corbett. From what I can tell Corbett won more rounds, but Jackson won a few rounds by a bigger margin. There wasn't much doing past round 30. At the end of 60+ rounds, Corbett walked away. Jackson needed the aid of others to exit.

While the conditions were not ideal for Jackson in the south, he had a chance for a title match, and Jackson balked. Jackson was in no danger in the fight. Jackson was not Johnson. He educated, and gentleman.

Regarding Jackson's TB, it did not get bad until 1900. If you read the reports Jackson had his share of backerís vs Jeffries because he had regained his old from according to the press.
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Old 03-03-2008, 06:36 PM   #22
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Default Re: So who thinks Peter Jackson would have beaten Sullivan?

Quote:
Originally Posted by Mendoza
The bottom line is this. Corbett made the offer to fight. The two spent a night in a hotel trying to arrange the match,
All due respect Mendoza - but that is very far from the bottom line. Here is the bottom line -

Corbett refused to fight Jackson in any arena other than one where Jackson would be in fear for his life, never mind likely to recieve a fair hearing.

Quote:
and Corbett wanted it because he felt he was the better in the first contest. I read the round by round report of Jackson vs Corbett. From what I can tell Corbett won more rounds, but Jackson won a few rounds by a bigger margin. There wasn't much doing past round 30. At the end of 60+ rounds, Corbett walked away. Jackson needed the aid of others to exit.
I have multiple round by rounds of the fight and I agree with your surmise. But I also have Jackson going in with a bad ankle - do you? The bottom line here would be, draw.

As to Corbett "wanting it", Bill Delaney, Corbett's right hand man disagreed:

"You can say I am in the position to announce that Corbett will not meet Jackson again. He is averse to meeting a negro on principal [it's worth noting that Corbett denied this]. besides all of his friends in the the South do not want him to again face the black man. Jim is anxios to pelase them in everything..." (New York Sun)

It's worth noting that this is in an interview conducted with a Northern newspaper.

It is my opinion that the hotel meeting was grandstanding. Corbett, within a week of becoming champion, had made up his mind not to face Jackson if it could be avoided.

OK, the champion can dictate terms - but you can't seriously think that Jackson is at fault for refusing to go south in light of the Dixon trouble? People were killed.


Quote:
Regarding Jackson's TB, it did not get bad until 1900. If you read the reports Jackson had his share of backerís vs Jeffries because he had regained his old from according to the press.
Interesting.
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Old 03-03-2008, 07:07 PM   #23
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Default Re: So who thinks Peter Jackson would have beaten Sullivan?

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McGrain All due respect Mendoza - but that is very far from the bottom line. Here is the bottom line -

Corbett refused to fight Jackson in any arena other than one where Jackson would be in fear for his life, never mind likely to recieve a fair hearing.
I have never heard of a fighter being assulted before or after the fight in the south. The police are there and both camps in those days had bodyguards. This was a prize fight, with gambling and any man who did something to Jackson to jeapordize the event or the match would catch hell from both camps.

Quote:
I have multiple round by rounds of the fight and I agree with your surmise. But I also have Jackson going in with a bad ankle - do you? The bottom line here would be, draw.
I think draw is fair. Jackson fell off a horse buggy, and sprained his ankle, but he had 2 weeks to heal and reports of the fight say the ankle did not limit Jackson's mobility.

Quote:
As to Corbett "wanting it", Bill Delaney, Corbett's right hand man disagreed:

"You can say I am in the position to announce that Corbett will not meet Jackson again. He is averse to meeting a negro on principal [it's worth noting that Corbett denied this]. besides all of his friends in the the South do not want him to again face the black man. Jim is anxios to pelase them in everything..." (New York Sun)
And this was said when, after Mitchel was selcted? Once a fight is set, trainers have been knwon to give the fans BS and always say that is who so and so wanted....

Quote:
It is my opinion that the hotel meeting was grandstanding. Corbett, within a week of becoming champion, had made up his mind not to face Jackson if it could be avoided.
Speucaltion at best. What is not specualtion is Jackson balked. He blew his chance.

Quote:
OK, the champion can dictate terms - but you can't seriously think that Jackson is at fault for refusing to go south in light of the Dixon trouble? People were killed.
Which prize fighter was killed before or after a fight in the south? None. Like I said Jackson could always bring in hired guns, and the gamblers will not allow some bystander to ruin their fight.
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Old 03-03-2008, 07:15 PM   #24
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Default Re: So who thinks Peter Jackson would have beaten Sullivan?

Quote:
Originally Posted by Mendoza
I have never heard of a fighter being assulted before or after the fight in the south. The police are there and both camps in those days had bodyguards. This was a prize fight, with gambling and any man who did something to Jackson to jeapordize the event or the match would catch hell from both camps.
I do not say that Jackson would be assaulted. I say that he would have been in fear of his life. This is real life, not history. There was near hysteria over a featherweight title fight in the south.

Let's not beat this point to death. I will just say - I do not think that Jackson can be expected to go south in these circumstances.



Quote:
I think draw is fair. Jackson fell off a horse buggy, and sprained his ankle, but he had 2 weeks to heal and reports of the fight say the ankle did not limit Jackson's mobility.
Yes, although I have also heard that Jackson was limited by this accident. All Jackson camp, all after the fight.



Quote:
And this was said when, after Mitchel was selcted? Once a fight is set, trainers have been knwon to give the fans BS and always say that is who so and so wanted....
September 9 1892. So well over a year before the Mitchell fight, AFTER Corbett had neamed Jackson as the only man worthy of his attention, but surely before the Mitchell fight had been made.

So no.



Quote:
Speucaltion at best. What is not specualtion is Jackson balked. He blew his chance.
You do me a slight injustice I feel - Corbett speaks about Jackson's lone worthiness in the days after the Sullivan fight, but after just a week of being champ he has begun naming an unworthy white challanger of equal consideration. Then we have Delaney speaking of Corbett's "friends in the South". Circumstantial at best, but "speculation at best"? Unfair, I feel.
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Old 03-04-2008, 10:41 AM   #25
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Default Re: So who thinks Peter Jackson would have beaten Sullivan?

This is a wonderful debate. I'm really enjoying reading you guys going at it.
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Old 03-04-2008, 10:43 AM   #26
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Default Re: So who thinks Peter Jackson would have beaten Sullivan?

Quote:
Originally Posted by apollack
This is a wonderful debate. I'm really enjoying reading you guys going at it.
Get gone, you know all this.

Three quarters of my end comes out of your book!

Post the link for your Fitz effort again, or PM me, re-reading that chapter form Corbett has me ready for your new one.
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Old 03-04-2008, 10:48 AM   #27
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Default Re: So who thinks Peter Jackson would have beaten Sullivan?

Yes, but I enjoy watching how two guys can make two strong arguments on either side based on the primary research I put in the Sullivan and Corbett books. I tried to be balanced. Makes me feel like I was successful.

e-mail [Only registered and activated users can see links. ]

or go to winbykopublications.com
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Old 03-04-2008, 11:07 AM   #28
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Default Re: So who thinks Peter Jackson would have beaten Sullivan?

Quote:
Originally Posted by McGrain
All due respect Mendoza - but that is very far from the bottom line. Here is the bottom line -

Corbett refused to fight Jackson in any arena other than one where Jackson would be in fear for his life, never mind likely to recieve a fair hearing.



I have multiple round by rounds of the fight and I agree with your surmise. But I also have Jackson going in with a bad ankle - do you? The bottom line here would be, draw.

As to Corbett "wanting it", Bill Delaney, Corbett's right hand man disagreed:

"You can say I am in the position to announce that Corbett will not meet Jackson again. He is averse to meeting a negro on principal [it's worth noting that Corbett denied this]. besides all of his friends in the the South do not want him to again face the black man. Jim is anxios to pelase them in everything..." (New York Sun)

It's worth noting that this is in an interview conducted with a Northern newspaper.

It is my opinion that the hotel meeting was grandstanding. Corbett, within a week of becoming champion, had made up his mind not to face Jackson if it could be avoided.

OK, the champion can dictate terms - but you can't seriously think that Jackson is at fault for refusing to go south in light of the Dixon trouble? People were killed.




Interesting.
How had Jackson regained his old form? He had one contest in 3 years a 6 rds no dec with Gus Wilkie a no hoper.In 6 Years Jackson had 10 rds of actual ring combat,I repeat he was retired and running a gym,he was a month off 37 years oldwhen he met Jeffries.What source have you that his Tb didnt affect him till 1900?Jackson ,in his next contest after Jeffries was kod in 4 rds by Jim Jeffords,thats how far he had slipped ,he never won another fight ,he was a shell of the fighter he had been .So sorry ,no credit to Jeffries there!
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Old 03-04-2008, 11:09 AM   #29
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Default Re: So who thinks Peter Jackson would have beaten Sullivan?

Quote:
Originally Posted by mcvey
How had Jackson regained his old form? He had one contest in 3 years a 6 rds no dec with Gus Wilkie a no hoper.In 6 Years Jackson had 10 rds of actual ring combat,I repeat he was retired and running a gym,he was a month off 37 years oldwhen he met Jeffries.What source have you that his Tb didnt affect him till 1900?Jackson ,in his next contest after Jeffries was kod in 4 rds by Jim Jeffords,thats how far he had slipped ,he never won another fight ,he was a shell of the fighter he had been .So sorry ,no credit to Jeffries there!
This post was to refute Mendoza,s claim that Jackson had regained his old form ,patent nonsense,to build up Jeffries win over him.
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Old 03-04-2008, 11:09 AM   #30
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Default Re: So who thinks Peter Jackson would have beaten Sullivan?

Quote:
Originally Posted by mcvey
How had Jackson regained his old form?
I think you meant to quote Mendoza here, I mostly agree with you.
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