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Old 03-04-2008, 05:23 PM   #46
mattdonnellon
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Default Re: So who thinks Peter Jackson would have beaten Sullivan?

All the posters on this thread know their stuff generally so I cant for the life of me understand how any of them feel that Jackson ,without a real fight for 6 years and at the age of 37 was anything like a championship contender class of fighter. Sure some reporters might have thought so at the time-the 19 century had some ATG idiots i'm sure- and of course the fight needed publicity, but even without hindsight it was a big ask to defeat a good promising contender. Factor in the fact that Jeff would prove to be a great champ and this thread is going daft. What next, an argument for John L based on the McCormick fight?
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Old 03-04-2008, 05:31 PM   #47
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Default Re: So who thinks Peter Jackson would have beaten Sullivan?

Quote:
Originally Posted by amhlilhaus
stylisitically sullivan was wrong for jackson, he could both brawl and box
Why is this wrong for Jackson?

He managed Slavin well enough.
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Old 03-04-2008, 05:33 PM   #48
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Default Re: So who thinks Peter Jackson would have beaten Sullivan?

Quote:
Originally Posted by mattdonnellon
All the posters on this thread know their stuff generally so I cant for the life of me understand how any of them feel that Jackson ,without a real fight for 6 years and at the age of 37 was anything like a championship contender class of fighter.
That is not what I am arguing.

I just think that given Jeffries inexperience and the dominant nature of his win he could get some credit.
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Old 03-04-2008, 05:55 PM   #49
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Default Re: So who thinks Peter Jackson would have beaten Sullivan?

What do you base his good form on?,his 6 round nodec fight 3 years earlier?
Jim Jeffords kod Jackson in Jackson,s next fight ,Jeffords was having his3 pro fight later in the year he would be kod by Ruhlin in 5 and Armstrong in 3,a year later Sharkey belted him out in 2 Maher ,also in 2 and a year later Maher turned the trick in 2 again ,Jeffords never beat a top fighter,the fact that he stopped Jackson in 3 shows the decline of the "Black Prince",should we give kudos to Jeffords for duplicating Jeffries feat?I can give you more than you can handle ,don,t worry about that ,Ive demolished your argument with facts,and in retaliation you are getting personal towards Sonny,s jab and myself,,I told you I bear you no grudge if you dont choose to beleive me ,theres, little I can do about it,you are a fine poster ,except when talking about your idol.James Jackson Jeffries.
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Old 03-05-2008, 06:52 AM   #50
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Default Re: So who thinks Peter Jackson would have beaten Sullivan?

Quote:
Originally Posted by McGrain
"I have never fought a negro blah blah blah".

So if Sullivan hadn't been such a coward/arsehole (delete as according to your preference, but don't try to tell me he wasn't one or the other) and had given Jackson the shot, how do you think that would have gone?

I guess Corbett would have favoured Jackson, "the greatest fighter [Corbett] had ever seen."

I'm getting the feeling that this is the guy history really cheated, to a greater extent than Wills, even.


EDIT: Something I learned today, upon Jackson's gravestone it read: "This Was A Man." Sonny Liston's grave echoes these words, curious.

He died aged 40, of TB I think.
Mendoza is fond of quoting newspaper clippings to support his arguments,her is one from the London newspaper "TheMirror Of Life",a premier sporting paper of the time."Peter Jackson is now a physical wreck and should not be allowed to fight",Dated March23 1898,This is the day after the Jackson Jefries fight.,this quote can be found in Hhascups post on the lineage of the Black Heavyweight crown ,I think it proves conclusively that Jackson was not a credible opponent for Jeffries.
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Old 03-05-2008, 07:39 AM   #51
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Default Re: So who thinks Peter Jackson would have beaten Sullivan?

Quote:
Originally Posted by mcvey
Mendoza is fond of quoting newspaper clippings to support his arguments,her is one from the London newspaper "TheMirror Of Life",a premier sporting paper of the time."Peter Jackson is now a physical wreck and should not be allowed to fight",Dated March23 1898,This is the day after the Jackson Jefries fight.,this quote can be found in Hhascups post on the lineage of the Black Heavyweight crown ,I think it proves conclusively that Jackson was not a credible opponent for Jeffries.
The day after fighters lose via bad TKO, their health is always in question. It’s a sympathy write up. The Mirror of Life did not say this leading up to the fight, did they? Hmmmmm..... Had Jackson won or looked good, such an article is not written. Besides, London back then was far away, from where Jackson was training for the fight.

The people who saw Jackson train did not say he was anything close to a physical wreck. Quite the opposite!!! Nevertheless, I do appreciate a news write up.

I think Janitor’s right. Jeffries deserves some credit for this fight. How many other people fought a past their prime all time great in their 7 or 8 recorded fight, and blew them away in 3 rounds?

Or look at it this way. Boxing history is full of past their prime older fighters, fighting prime versions of a champion to be, or champion. Read this portion, then reply.


Corbett took 21 rounds to finish old Sullivan….
Johnson took 15 rounds to finish old Jeffries….
Marciano took 8 round to finish old Louis…
Holmes took 9 rounds to finish old Ali….
Lewis took 8 rounds to finish old Tyson….

Jeffries destroyed Jackson, flooring him twice in round two, and leaving him down and tangled up in the ropes in round 3 like a puppet who’s strings had be cut off.



In addition, Jackson was the closest to his ideal fighting weight of the older fighters.

Therefore, in the context of things, Jeffries did exactly what he was supposed to. He did not carry Jackson, and his experience in pro fights was far less than the above fighters.
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Old 03-05-2008, 07:41 AM   #52
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Default Re: So who thinks Peter Jackson would have beaten Sullivan?

I have almost no doubt that Jackson was not a serious opponent for Jeffries.

I think this is a rare occasion where Mendoza is mistaken, although new information is always welcome.
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Old 03-05-2008, 07:58 AM   #53
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Default Re: So who thinks Peter Jackson would have beaten Sullivan?

Quote:
Originally Posted by Mendoza
The day after fighters lose via bad TKO, their health is always in question. It’s a sympathy write up. The Mirror of Life did not say this leading up to the fight, did they? Hmmmmm..... Had Jackson won or looked good, such an article is not written. Besides, London back then was far away, from where Jackson was training for the fight.

The people who saw Jackson train did not say he was anything close to a physical wreck. Quite the opposite!!! Nevertheless, I do appreciate a news write up.

I think Janitor’s right. Jeffries deserves some credit for this fight. How many other people fought a past their prime all time great in their 7 or 8 recorded fight, and blew them away in 3 rounds?

Or look at it this way. Boxing history is full of past their prime older fighters, fighting prime versions of a champion to be, or champion. Read this portion, then reply.


Corbett took 21 rounds to finish old Sullivan….
Johnson took 15 rounds to finish old Jeffries….
Marciano took 8 round to finish old Louis…
Holmes took 9 rounds to finish old Ali….
Lewis took 8 rounds to finish old Tyson….

Jeffries destroyed Jackson, flooring him twice in round two, and leaving him down and tangled up in the ropes in round 3 like a puppet who’s strings had be cut off.



In addition, Jackson was the closest to his ideal fighting weight of the older fighters.

Therefore, in the context of things, Jeffries did exactly what he was supposed to. He did not carry Jackson, and his experience in pro fights was far less than the above fighters.
If you give credit to Jeffries ,do you give credit to Jim Jeffords for duplicating this feat? You say Jeffries was having his 8th pro fight ,yet Jeffords was in his 3rd.And in mentioning all the old guys that were stopped by young up and comers you failed to mention ,Jeffries taking 11 rds to stop Fitz ,and, 23 to stop Corbett.You cant have it both ways M.Do you accept that in light of the fact that Jackson never won another fight after this debacle,and was stopped by a third rater in his next contest ,that he was not a viable opponent for Jeffries?
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Old 03-05-2008, 08:06 AM   #54
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Default Re: So who thinks Peter Jackson would have beaten Sullivan?

Quote:
Originally Posted by mcvey
If you give credit to Jeffries ,do you give credit to Jim Jeffords for duplicating this feat? You say Jeffries was having his 8th pro fight ,yet Jeffords was in his 3rd.And in mentioning all the old guys that were stopped by young up and comers you failed to mention ,Jeffries taking 11 rds to stop Fitz ,and, 23 to stop Corbett.You cant have it both ways M.Do you accept that in light of the fact that Jackson never won another fight after this debacle,and was stopped by a third rater in his next contest ,that he was not a viable opponent for Jeffries?
Can you reply for once to what I said?

Do you not think beating a past his prime ATG in your 7-8th fight in 3 rounds is impressive or not? I showed you history here, and Jeffries is far and away the best under these circumstances.

I get the hunch you are going to keep grasping for straws. It would be nice to say, " you have some points here "

Fitz and Corbett reboudned to win big fights after they were Ko'd. Hence they were not shot. I am not having it both ways.

After Jackson lost to Jeffries life went south for him. He became an alcholic, his business failed, and he was a mess in more ways than one. You can either take my word for it, or look it up.
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Old 03-05-2008, 11:56 AM   #55
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Default Re: So who thinks Peter Jackson would have beaten Sullivan?

You originally asserted that Jackson had regained his old form ,I asked you on what you based that ?Yu did not reply.You say Jeffries should be given credit for stopping Jackson in his 8th pro fight,I asked you should we give the same credit to no hoper Jeffords ,for doing the same in his 3rd pro fight ,You did not reply.Its you not answering questions not me.Now you have diluted Jackson,s form from "recapturing his old form" to being past his prime,,he was past his prime allright ,so far past it that a 3 fight novice stopped him in 3 rds.
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Old 03-05-2008, 12:30 PM   #56
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Default Re: So who thinks Peter Jackson would have beaten Sullivan?

Quote:
Originally Posted by mcvey
so far past it that a 3 fight novice stopped him in 3 rds.
If Jeffords was a 3 fight novice.

I have read some contemporary acounts of the fight. Jeffords was seen as a third rater but was quite well known which I take to mean that he probably had unrecorded fights.

Jackson had been hitting the bottle hard between the Jeffries fight and the Jeffords fight. Probably before the Jeffries fight but now it was to an extent that the press knew it. There was none of the misguided optimism that surounded the Jeffries fight.
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Old 03-05-2008, 12:56 PM   #57
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Default Re: So who thinks Peter Jackson would have beaten Sullivan?

Jackson was considered past it in Corbett's fight already (see Adam's book for details, if you wish).
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Old 03-05-2008, 12:59 PM   #58
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Default Re: So who thinks Peter Jackson would have beaten Sullivan?

Quote:
Originally Posted by Senya13
Jackson was considered past it in Corbett's fight already (see Adam's book for details, if you wish).
He was.

How much he had left in sucesive years after that is hard to pin down however.
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Old 03-05-2008, 01:01 PM   #59
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Default Re: So who thinks Peter Jackson would have beaten Sullivan?

Quote:
Originally Posted by mcvey
You originally asserted that Jackson had regained his old form ,I asked you on what you based that ?Yu did not reply.You say Jeffries should be given credit for stopping Jackson in his 8th pro fight,I asked you should we give the same credit to no hoper Jeffords ,for doing the same in his 3rd pro fight ,You did not reply.Its you not answering questions not me.Now you have diluted Jackson,s form from "recapturing his old form" to being past his prime,,he was past his prime allright ,so far past it that a 3 fight novice stopped him in 3 rds.
Still not giving any credit? Though older I said is Jackson had regained his from. I posted a news article leading up the fight that went into detail as to why. I suppose this was not good enough for you. Figures.

As I said before, the loss to Jeffries ruined Jackson. Jackson became a hard drinker, and lost his businesses after the Jeffries fight. . The Jeffords who fought Jackson fought an emotionally and mentally bankrupt fighter. The Jackson who fought Jeffries was in the proper frame of mind and in shape. I do not think any report says Jackson was in good shape leading up the Jeffords fight.

Now can you awnswer some of my questions?

Here's one.

Boxing history is full of past their prime older fighters, fighting prime versions of a champion to be, or champion.

Corbett took 21 rounds to finish old Sullivan….
Johnson took 15 rounds to finish old Jeffries….
Marciano took 8 round to finish old Louis…
Holmes took 9 rounds to finish old Ali….
Lewis took 8 rounds to finish old Tyson….

Jeffries destroyed Jackson, flooring him twice in round two, and leaving him down and tangled up in the ropes in round 3 like a puppet who’s strings had be cut off. In addition, Jackson was the closest to his ideal fighting weight of the older fighters, and Jeffries was the greenest of the above fighters listed..

The question is, do you think Jeffries dominance over Jackson was greater than the other fighter’s dominance over older greats? YES or NO.
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Old 03-05-2008, 02:26 PM   #60
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Default Re: So who thinks Peter Jackson would have beaten Sullivan?

Quote:
Originally Posted by Mendoza
Still not giving any credit? Though older I said is Jackson had regained his from. I posted a news article leading up the fight that went into detail as to why. I suppose this was not good enough for you. Figures.

As I said before, the loss to Jeffries ruined Jackson. Jackson became a hard drinker, and lost his businesses after the Jeffries fight. . The Jeffords who fought Jackson fought an emotionally and mentally bankrupt fighter. The Jackson who fought Jeffries was in the proper frame of mind and in shape. I do not think any report says Jackson was in good shape leading up the Jeffords fight.

Now can you awnswer some of my questions?

Here's one.

Boxing history is full of past their prime older fighters, fighting prime versions of a champion to be, or champion.

Corbett took 21 rounds to finish old Sullivan….
Johnson took 15 rounds to finish old Jeffries….
Marciano took 8 round to finish old Louis…
Holmes took 9 rounds to finish old Ali….
Lewis took 8 rounds to finish old Tyson….

Jeffries destroyed Jackson, flooring him twice in round two, and leaving him down and tangled up in the ropes in round 3 like a puppet who’s strings had be cut off. In addition, Jackson was the closest to his ideal fighting weight of the older fighters, and Jeffries was the greenest of the above fighters listed..

The question is, do you think Jeffries dominance over Jackson was greater than the other fighter’s dominance over older greats? YES or NO.
Where is you r source for the statement thatJackson became a heavy drinker AFTER the Jeffries fight before he fights Jeffries hes ok ,then in 17 months he becomes a wreck,my contention is he was a wreck before both fights.The fact that Jackson had his weight down and looked ok in sparring means jack shit ,Ali had his weight down and looked ok sparring befdore he met Holmes.You produced nothing to back up your claim that Jackson had regained his ld form ,except a news clipping that said he looked ok in training.If a man has had 10 rds of boxing in 6 years how do you think his form will be when he gets in the ring with a rated contender?Add to that he had retired and was running a gym was a drinker and in the first throes of TB.In answer to your question I think ,Jefries dominance over Jackson was the same as Jeffords,even to stopping him in the same round.You several times made a point of saying that Jeffries was having his 8th contest ,when I pointed out that Jeffords was having his 3rd,you say Ah but he probably had unrecorded fights ,having your cake and eating it again!You arent going to budge ,and neither am I ,does anyone else agree with you ,NO! What does that tell you?
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