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Old 04-07-2014, 09:53 AM   #61
DKD
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Default Re: why when mentioning the true greats of boxing does duran get talked about so high

I don't agree that Leonard was much better than Duran.

Leonard barley fought a dozen title fights in a 40 fight career, 3 of these were against Duran, 2 of them against Hearns. Three of the 12 were losses, thats a quarter.

As for the second fight with Duran its well known that having ballooned up to around 200lbs Duran struggled to get in shape for the rematch, he also had millions of dollars in the bank for the first time in his life and was far less focused. No way was the Duran of New Orleans the same fighter he had been at Montreal. The third fight, around ten years later, was just terrible, Leonard was past his best and Duran, pushing 40, was even worse.

The most impressive fight of the three was the first at Montreal, when both guys were superbly conditioned, well focused and highly motivated. Leonard's wins count, of course, but the first fight was the most significant.

While Leonard's win over Hagler is still impressive due to his lay off and never having fought at the weight, its fair to say that Hagler was way past his best. The win is also controversial, given that it was so close with many people calling it for Hagler. Duran definitely faced a much better version of Hagler than Leonard did.

When you look closely at Leonard's record his most impressive wins are really Benitez and Hearns I. These are both excellent wins, of course, but his later fights are less worthy, at least in my opinion.

Leonard was a great boxer and had a great career, but no way was he better than Duran, either as a boxer or in terms of his achievements.
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Old 04-07-2014, 10:35 AM   #62
antonio plaisir
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Default Re: why when mentioning the true greats of boxing does duran get talked about so high

cyrax, we either consider duran's condition or discount srl's ego. objectively we can't pick and choose contributing factors. you're also ignoring the concept of lb4lb and the old adage about big and little 'uns. in this instance a true great went toe to toe with a smaller man and lost more clearly than he beat hagler. if we're talking strategies, hearns coulda boxed behind his jab to a ud against them all but chose to go to war.

2 atgs no doubt, i shade duran.
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Old 04-07-2014, 10:44 AM   #63
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Default Re: why when mentioning the true greats of boxing does duran get talked about so high

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Originally Posted by DKD View Post
I don't agree that Leonard was much better than Duran.

Leonard barley fought a dozen title fights in a 40 fight career, 3 of these were against Duran, 2 of them against Hearns. Three of the 12 were losses, thats a quarter.

As for the second fight with Duran its well known that having ballooned up to around 200lbs Duran struggled to get in shape for the rematch, he also had millions of dollars in the bank for the first time in his life and was far less focused. No way was the Duran of New Orleans the same fighter he had been at Montreal. The third fight, around ten years later, was just terrible, Leonard was past his best and Duran, pushing 40, was even worse.

The most impressive fight of the three was the first at Montreal, when both guys were superbly conditioned, well focused and highly motivated. Leonard's wins count, of course, but the first fight was the most significant.

While Leonard's win over Hagler is still impressive due to his lay off and never having fought at the weight, its fair to say that Hagler was way past his best. The win is also controversial, given that it was so close with many people calling it for Hagler. Duran definitely faced a much better version of Hagler than Leonard did.

When you look closely at Leonard's record his most impressive wins are really Benitez and Hearns I. These are both excellent wins, of course, but his later fights are less worthy, at least in my opinion.

Leonard was a great boxer and had a great career, but no way was he better than Duran, either as a boxer or in terms of his achievements.
i love duran dead heads, you have to be on something to think duran had a better career than ray leonard.

duran was washed up after 1980. he didnt win another world title until 1984 beating 12-0 davey moore for the 154 WBA title before getting knocked out in his next fight against tommy hearns.
He then goes another 4 years and finally wins the WBC 160 title by beating barkley in a very close decision.

so Duran is more myth then legend. his reign at 135 is grossly exaggerated. he had 12 title defenses which is great but the only hofers he beat were dejesus/buchannan.

no title defenses outside of 135 which means he won the title but wasnt good enough to defend it.

ray beat him up so he could never rank ahead of ray in any rational persons mind, but being a duran dead head you consider him top 5 all time maybe at 135 but with no legacy outside of 135 he is around 30-40 atg.
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Old 04-07-2014, 10:45 AM   #64
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Default Re: why when mentioning the true greats of boxing does duran get talked about so high

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Originally Posted by antonio plaisir View Post
cyrax, we either consider duran's condition or discount srl's ego. objectively we can't pick and choose contributing factors. you're also ignoring the concept of lb4lb and the old adage about big and little 'uns. in this instance a true great went toe to toe with a smaller man and lost more clearly than he beat hagler. if we're talking strategies, hearns coulda boxed behind his jab to a ud against them all but chose to go to war.

2 atgs no doubt, i shade duran.
duran did not got from 135 to 147 immediately he had been fighting at 147 for two years before he fought ray. so he was no little one as you suggest. more duran lies and myths
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Old 04-07-2014, 11:09 AM   #65
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Default Re: why when mentioning the true greats of boxing does duran get talked about so high

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i love duran dead heads, you have to be on something to think duran had a better career than ray leonard.

duran was washed up after 1980. he didnt win another world title until 1984 beating 12-0 davey moore for the 154 WBA title before getting knocked out in his next fight against tommy hearns.
He then goes another 4 years and finally wins the WBC 160 title by beating barkley in a very close decision.

so Duran is more myth then legend. his reign at 135 is grossly exaggerated. he had 12 title defenses which is great but the only hofers he beat were dejesus/buchannan.

no title defenses outside of 135 which means he won the title but wasnt good enough to defend it.

ray beat him up so he could never rank ahead of ray in any rational persons mind, but being a duran dead head you consider him top 5 all time maybe at 135 but with no legacy outside of 135 he is around 30-40 atg.

Duran and De Jesus would be top 10 p4p material in this era. Buchanan especially would dominate, dishing out schoolings left right and centre, even going up to 140 and dominating. Ken would run rings around guy's like Garcia and Matthysse. Era's were tougher, fighters were better. Ken wasn't just a great boxer, he was a hearty fighter and had a chin of iron. Ken at lightweight would have gave Floyd and Pac fits.

People forget Duran also beat Ernesto Marcel at feather. Marcel was an outstanding boxer who when past his best (in his last ever fight) out boxed prime Alexis Arguello over 15. Marcel was one of only a handful of fighters to retire a world champion. Duran was just too much pressure for Marcel, eventually stopping him in the last round.
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Old 04-07-2014, 11:10 AM   #66
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Default Re: why when mentioning the true greats of boxing does duran get talked about so high

OP is a complete phaggot
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Old 04-07-2014, 11:26 AM   #67
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Default Re: why when mentioning the true greats of boxing does duran get talked about so high

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Duran and De Jesus would be top 10 p4p material in this era. Buchanan especially would dominate, dishing out schoolings left right and centre, even going up to 140 and dominating. Ken would run rings around guy's like Garcia and Matthysse. Era's were tougher, fighters were better. Ken wasn't just a great boxer, he was a hearty fighter and had a chin of iron. Ken at lightweight would have gave Floyd and Pac fits.

People forget Duran also beat Ernesto Marcel at feather. Marcel was an outstanding boxer who when past his best (in his last ever fight) out boxed prime Alexis Arguello over 15. Marcel was one of only a handful of fighters to retire a world champion. Duran was just too much pressure for Marcel, eventually stopping him in the last round.
buchanan had a total of 3 title defenses lol how does that make him p4p material another duran dead head.
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Old 04-07-2014, 11:31 AM   #68
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Default Re: why when mentioning the true greats of boxing does duran get talked about so high

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no doubt duran was great but you cant hold him in a high regard as leonard hearns hagler or the likes.the others you could put in with todays fighters and they would still be great.duran was basically the ricky hatton of his day,great but not elite
I kind of agree. He is a true ATG, but on most peoples all time rating they have he inside the top 10.

Why so high?
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Old 04-07-2014, 11:32 AM   #69
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Default Re: why when mentioning the true greats of boxing does duran get talked about so high

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OP is a complete phaggot
OP is asking a legit question. Go watch WWE
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Old 04-07-2014, 11:58 AM   #70
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Default Re: why when mentioning the true greats of boxing does duran get talked about so high

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buchanan had a total of 3 title defenses lol how does that make him p4p material another duran dead head.
You trying to tell me if Buchanan was around in this era he wouldn't be in the top ten p4p? Broner got in ffs. Kens 3 title defences were of a higher quality than most of the shit you get nowadays. Laguna, Ruben Navarro and Duran. As I said era's were tougher. Some of Kens warm up fights between title defences were of an equal or even higher standard of opponent than what you get now in world title fights. Look at some of the shit Calzaghe fought in title defences. Buchanan fought Ortiz/Guerrero standard fighters between world title defences.
Your problem is when you look at records you don't know what your looking at.

Last edited by rossco666; 04-07-2014 at 12:51 PM.
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Old 04-07-2014, 12:09 PM   #71
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Default Re: why when mentioning the true greats of boxing does duran get talked about so high

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you misunderstand, i agree with you and was ridiculing the other.

at lw a focused duran demolishes floyd.
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Old 04-07-2014, 12:22 PM   #72
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Default Re: why when mentioning the true greats of boxing does duran get talked about so high

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Despite Leonard going toe to toe, giving up all footwork in fight 1, just to prove a point, Duran BARELY inks a decision. Leonard fights his fight, and absolutely smokes Duran, utterly humiliates him. Duran literally quit, because he was so utterly humiliated. When all the cards were in Duran's favor, he hardly scraped a decision. When the cards were even, he gets humiliated, so yeah I do favor Leonard. This isn't to mention Leonard got a detatched retina later in his career, fought Duran for a third time before retiring, and beat him again. Simply by observing, you can see Leonard was superior to Duran, but he has the flat numbers too, beat him 2 out of 3.

Leonard knocked out Benitez and Hearns. Benitez schools Duran, makes him look like a novice in there, beats him with ease. Duran couldn't even last two rounds against Hearns, before he got knocked out cold.

There really should be no doubt who the superior fighter is. Leonard dominated Duran in two out of three matches. Performances against common opponents are telling, Leonard dominated common opponents between the two, while Duran got his rear end spanked by the same guys. Another common opponent? None other than Marvin Hagler. Leonard beat him straight out of coming back from a 3+ year retirement. Duran faced Hagler too, and lost of course, just like he did against the others. Leonard was the absolute star, the true alpha of the FAB 4, Duran was the punching bag for the other 3 guys in the FAB 4.

Leonard is much better than Duran, there is no question.
Certainly that's debatable. SRL was a welterweight, Duran a lightweight. SRL was only slightly ahead on the cards when Duran quit, you make it sound like he was pitching a shut out before Duran quit. And when they were both at their absolute best, it was Duran who won.

Had SRL fought as many fights and Duran did, and performed on the same level he did during the fights he had, I would agree that he would be rated higher than Duran, but that simply wasn't the case.

Last edited by Vanboxingfan; 04-07-2014 at 12:36 PM.
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Old 04-07-2014, 12:44 PM   #73
antonio plaisir
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Default Re: why when mentioning the true greats of boxing does duran get talked about so high

brandish, he fought 2 titlists because back then there were 2 titles, and he won.

and claiming duran isn't smaller than srl hurts your argument, not mine.

more positively, every day a man of your intellect survives is another victory over natural selection. congratulations.
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Old 04-07-2014, 12:50 PM   #74
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Default Re: why when mentioning the true greats of boxing does duran get talked about so high

Shake of the head...
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Old 04-07-2014, 12:55 PM   #75
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Default Re: why when mentioning the true greats of boxing does duran get talked about so high

Duran started pro boxing as a skinny bantamweight. Of course Duran is naturally smaller than SRL.
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