Boxing  

Forum Home Boxing Forum European British Classic Aussie MMA Training
Go Back   Boxing News 24 Forum > Boxing > General Boxing Forum


Reply
 
Thread Tools
Old 04-09-2014, 03:47 PM   #61
mr. magoo
Undisputed Champion
East Side VIP
 
Join Date: Jan 2007
Location: Chicago, Illinois USA
Posts: 13,414
vCash: 1000
Default Re: Wlads Legasy in 2 years IF

I don't think they are ALL journeyman level fighters. Some of them are to be sure, but not all. Chris Byrd, Ruslan chagaev, David Haye, Alexander Povetkin and even Eddie chambers were fairly skilled fighters with good records and were of reasonable age and condition. The fights themselves turned out to be disappointments but that has a lot to do with styles not meshing well or the opponent choosing to go into survival mode rather than going for the glory. I don't hold these things against Klitschko. At the end of the day, a champion can only beat the guys that boxing puts in front of him. To punish a fighter for not having Joe Frazier in front of him is like calling my generation p-ssies for not having Adolf Hitler to deal with..
mr. magoo is offline  Top
Reply With Quote
Sponsored Links
Old 04-09-2014, 03:49 PM   #62
Unforgiven
Undisputed Champion
East Side VIP
 
Join Date: Nov 2005
Posts: 12,568
vCash: 1000
Default Re: Wlads Legasy in 2 years IF

Quote:
Originally Posted by mcvey View Post
They are mediocre with journeyman skills,should I pretend they are not just because they have a ranking? All that shows is that the division is abysmal.I don't give credit to someone for beating what are essentially journeymen.
And when they put us through 12 rds of snore bore laying all over ,and wrestling while doing it, I think they deserve to be castigated.
Yeah, that's one way of looking at it.
Still, whenever a man can justly claim to be the best in the world for several years straight, and no one disputes that, and he remains active and in prime condition and winning, he deserves credit.
Unforgiven is offline  Top
Reply With Quote
Old 04-09-2014, 03:52 PM   #63
The Mongoose
THROW SOME THUNDAAAH!!!!
East Side Guru
 
Join Date: Aug 2009
Location: Washington D.C.
Posts: 8,535
vCash: 258
Default Re: Wlads Legasy in 2 years IF

Quote:
Originally Posted by FartWristedBum View Post
Hey 'goose, classy response, was afraid of the "No way, you're an alt, Wlad ATG you ****" type stuff.

You make a salient point, and when you strip it to the bare bones of who faced who wlad can be 'forgiven' (not that he needs to be) for missing out on certain challenges.

It's not so much to do with exact fighters he didn't face but the unique situation him and his brother and teams exploit to remain champs by the path of least resistance. And it really is the path of least resistance....even when the competition has been relatively slim. Perhaps I'm holding him to different standards (which is a compliment to his dominance) but I don't think fighting guys with a good style match-up, one after the other when lot of fans would almost always have him fight someone else more challenging puts him at ATG status, regardless of the tremendous paper record.

It's a mark on modern times more than him personally I suppose.....why no good trilogies to his name? With slim competition and such a long reign?
I'm not sure about the style match-up criticism, I haven't seen the pattern. Them splitting Adamek and Haye for instance. Adamek's lack of fire power would never be took as a threat to Wlad, while Haye's power and speed was supposed to be more problematic for him. The Nay-Sayers were actually expecting Vitali to handle Haye for Wlad, while he took the more ideal Adamek match up. That was not the case.
The Mongoose is offline  Top
Reply With Quote
Old 04-09-2014, 03:55 PM   #64
Azzer85
ATG
East Side Guru
 
Join Date: Mar 2010
Location: West Midlands, UK
Posts: 6,819
vCash: 500
Default Re: Wlads Legasy in 2 years IF

Quote:
Originally Posted by mcvey View Post
Fury is chinny and is fighting also rans.Wilder throws long looping punches and goes crazy if he lands one, he has as much technique as Joe Grim.

Chisora at last has himself in shape, in the twilight of his career, he lacks power and has already been badly exposed by Haye.
Stiverne looks better than all three but he hasn't met anyone I call class, but then there isn't anyone outside of Wlad in that category.

Crap division full of fat boys like lazy Solis and Arreola,and untested East Europeans. I couldnt care less about it.The most prestigious prize in sport is now a joke and the fights for it are not even carried by US TV,and with ****ing good reason.The Germans will watch anything ,they thought Otke and Maske were Supermen,well they are welcome to it.
i agree with what your saying
but the way i was looking at it was, these 3 guys pose more of a thread than the rest of the shitbags.

yes Fury is chinny, but so is Wlad and Fury has the size and desire to make this fight interesting. I honestly believe he would have beat Vitali.

Same with Wilder, hes big clumsy and possibly chinny. But he can bang and he has size so i want to see how Wlad will deal with him

Chisora doesn't have quite the power but he hurt Vitali plenty. Chisora will take Wlad to deep waters, i want to see how Wlad will react to this.

these guys are better than some of the garbage wlad has been fighting.

and i don't think any of them will blame their toe. Ok Wilder might out of the 3
Azzer85 is online now  Top
Reply With Quote
Old 04-09-2014, 04:00 PM   #65
FartWristedBum
Journeyman
ESB Jr Member
 
Join Date: Feb 2014
Location: UK
Posts: 228
vCash: 500
Default Re: Wlads Legasy in 2 years IF

I agree he's done good things in the ring. Beating a former Cruiser weight multi-champ in Haye and looking dominant doing it was a top performance few if any in the world at the time could have done. But, we're talking a DECADE at the top. That's a long ass time and to have such (to my mind) wafer thin credentials to be in the ATG discussion.

He's not been busy enough, taken on all comers and managed to beat them convincingly (by KO's) or been in nearly as many memorable fights as the company some would wish him to keep in boxing's illustrious history.

He's the best HW currently, has been for a long time (aside from his brother) but to be regarded as ATG he should have done far more exceptional things in that time than he has. Just one man's opinion...
FartWristedBum is offline  Top
Reply With Quote
Old 04-09-2014, 04:05 PM   #66
mr. magoo
Undisputed Champion
East Side VIP
 
Join Date: Jan 2007
Location: Chicago, Illinois USA
Posts: 13,414
vCash: 1000
Default Re: Wlads Legasy in 2 years IF

That's a fair observation. But aside from not fighting his own brother, there really isn't anything else that he SHOULD have done which was on the table for him to do.
mr. magoo is offline  Top
Reply With Quote
Old 04-09-2014, 04:10 PM   #67
Unforgiven
Undisputed Champion
East Side VIP
 
Join Date: Nov 2005
Posts: 12,568
vCash: 1000
Default Re: Wlads Legasy in 2 years IF

Chisora needs to knock out Fury before he's even in the discussion for me.

Because if you get iced like that against David Haye you're shit. Those are my rules.
Unforgiven is offline  Top
Reply With Quote
Old 04-09-2014, 04:16 PM   #68
FartWristedBum
Journeyman
ESB Jr Member
 
Join Date: Feb 2014
Location: UK
Posts: 228
vCash: 500
Default Re: Wlads Legasy in 2 years IF

Too true Magoo (great name BTW), my point is not that he hasn't been a worthy and dominant champ. He has. Definitely.
Just that for me, personally, All-Time-Great should be a title reserved for those who you believe, if pitted against all the other great champs in HW history, would hold their own and take a few scalps/give an entertaining fight.
For me, Wlad would not do this but it's just a fantasy-match-up type criterion I'm holding him to. I think history will look back on Vitali as the ATG of the two if there is one. Just based on what I've seen and the impression the two fighters matches have given me, I've no concrete numbers to back this up.
Do you think Wlad would win a few/lose a few against the best in HW history? IMO he'd be shown up a bit......
FartWristedBum is offline  Top
Reply With Quote
Old 04-09-2014, 04:24 PM   #69
dinovelvet
Up Top To The Head
East Side Guru
 
Join Date: Jul 2012
Posts: 9,566
vCash: 86
Default Re: Wlads Legasy in 2 years IF

Quote:
Originally Posted by Mendoza View Post
Wlad's caliber of opposition in his title run is no worse than Joe Louis. In fact Louis had a higher amount of easier marks. I agree Leapai is a BS defense, but he beat Boystov who would have made a better opponent. Age has jack to with ratings. There have been men over 40 who can still fight.
Louis was fighting up to 5 of those guys a year. He fought to put food on the table , not represent the HW titles like Wlad does when he choses to fight these no namers.

Boxing becomes a form of bullying when a guy selects under matched comp who have no chance and then twists their necks and piles his weight on their backs. Wlad has no legacy in this honourable sport of men.

Last edited by dinovelvet; 04-09-2014 at 04:46 PM.
dinovelvet is offline  Top
Reply With Quote
Old 04-09-2014, 04:27 PM   #70
Azzer85
ATG
East Side Guru
 
Join Date: Mar 2010
Location: West Midlands, UK
Posts: 6,819
vCash: 500
Default Re: Wlads Legasy in 2 years IF

Quote:
Originally Posted by Unforgiven View Post
Chisora needs to knock out Fury before he's even in the discussion for me.

Because if you get iced like that against David Haye you're shit. Those are my rules.
But Haye can seriously punch, Chisoras style meant he was always going to be on the receiving end of a beating
Azzer85 is online now  Top
Reply With Quote
Old 04-09-2014, 04:29 PM   #71
dinovelvet
Up Top To The Head
East Side Guru
 
Join Date: Jul 2012
Posts: 9,566
vCash: 86
Default Re: Wlads Legasy in 2 years IF

Quote:
Originally Posted by Unforgiven View Post
Yeah, Alex Leapai's probably the worst challenger Wlad has faced. .
What makes Pianeta , Mormek and Wach better than Leapai?

Mormeks taks the title as worst and the way he fought him was an atrocity.
dinovelvet is offline  Top
Reply With Quote
Old 04-09-2014, 04:30 PM   #72
Azzer85
ATG
East Side Guru
 
Join Date: Mar 2010
Location: West Midlands, UK
Posts: 6,819
vCash: 500
Default Re: Wlads Legasy in 2 years IF

I do blame Manny Steward (rip) for some of this.

He created that shitty style of jab, grab, lean. First he implemented it with Lewis and then Wlad and now Fury uses the same tactics.

I think leaning on fighters should be made illegal.

Take away Wlads clinching and leaning and his career would have turned out very differently
Azzer85 is online now  Top
Reply With Quote
Old 04-09-2014, 04:42 PM   #73
dinovelvet
Up Top To The Head
East Side Guru
 
Join Date: Jul 2012
Posts: 9,566
vCash: 86
Default Re: Wlads Legasy in 2 years IF

Quote:
Originally Posted by mcvey View Post
They are mediocre with journeyman skills,should I pretend they are not just because they have a ranking? All that shows is that the division is abysmal.I don't give credit to someone for beating what are essentially journeymen..
Thats the bottom line. And he's not beating these second raters like a great fighter should.

Why can't he blast these weak bodies out in impressive fashion instead of mauling, groping , bear hugging them to death till they have just about enough engery left to stand?

You should be looking better fighting guys a level down , not worse, which begs the question - how does he fare against an elite level fighter?
dinovelvet is offline  Top
Reply With Quote
Old 04-09-2014, 04:48 PM   #74
Mendoza
Dominating a decade
East Side VIP
 
Join Date: Jun 2007
Posts: 14,102
vCash: 1000
Default Re: Wlads Legasy in 2 years IF

Quote:
Originally Posted by mcvey View Post
What the fact that a 42 years old man is still rated indicates is that the division is very poor. Joe Louis never dodged his number one contender.
Was the division poor in the 1990's when Foreman was rated? I'll give you the answer, and suspect you won't disagree. NO, the division was very good in the 1990's.

Louis only fought two black men in 26 title defense. You could say he dodged the 1-5 top rated black contenders not named Walcott.
Mendoza is offline  Top
Reply With Quote
Old 04-09-2014, 04:53 PM   #75
janitor
P4P King
East Side VIP
 
Join Date: Feb 2006
Posts: 21,069
vCash: 1000
Default Re: Wlads Legasy in 2 years IF

If a fighter legitimately gains a top ten ranking, then you can’t simply dismiss them as an opponent. It is the gold standard for a contender in their era, and you can never ultimately prove that one era is weaker than another.

A fighters actual real world accomplishments in the ring, are a far more tangible measure of their ability, than the opinion of somebody on the internet. Therefore if a fighter is consistently beating the ranked contenders of their era, then you can’t simply dismiss it.

We wouldn’t have any patience with that line of argument, if this was some historic fighter, and we shouldn’t in this case.
janitor is online now  Top
Reply With Quote
Reply

Boxing News 24 Forum > Boxing > General Boxing Forum

Thread Tools

Posting Rules
You may not post new threads
You may not post replies
You may not post attachments
You may not edit your posts

BB code is On
Smilies are On
[IMG] code is Off
HTML code is Off

Forum Jump





All times are GMT -4. The time now is 08:06 AM.


Powered by vBulletin® Version 3.8.0
Copyright ©2000 - 2014, Jelsoft Enterprises Ltd.
Boxing News 24 Forum 2013