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Old 04-03-2012, 06:31 PM   #31
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Default Re: If Armstrong Had Become a Four Division Champion...

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I think people put too much attention into that aspect of Garcia II. He beat him before and I question the legitimacy of that MW belt anyways. Fact is he already held 3 belt of 3 divisions at once and is a top 5-10 ATG. That fight doesn't change that and neither does it diminish his career either. He didn't need it for his legacy he had better wins. For the record I thought he beat him in the rematch but it wouldn't have been his best win and maybe not even top 3-5 it just would've been a cherry on top.
see the above posts by myself and more importantly by stonehands.
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Old 04-03-2012, 06:32 PM   #32
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Default Re: If Armstrong Had Become a Four Division Champion...

If Henry fought today he would be 20 weight champion, all jokes aside, he was special.
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Old 04-03-2012, 06:36 PM   #33
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Default Re: If Armstrong Had Become a Four Division Champion...

What gets me is how skilled he still looks on film.

His mix of defence and attack even today looks staggering and not many guys from 80 years ago stand the test of time.
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Old 04-03-2012, 06:42 PM   #34
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Default Re: If Armstrong Had Become a Four Division Champion...

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What gets me is how skilled he still looks on film.

His mix of defence and attack even today looks staggering and not many guys from 80 years ago stand the test of time.
Skill, or technique however you put it has largely been lost when you look at modern day fighters.

Look at Toney success despite being out of shape most of time and you get an idea how a Charles or Walcott would do now in the heavies.

Watch Khan, whilst physically very fast and sharp, has no real boxing skill of any value and this is why Peterson was able to crowd him and win that night.

Joe Louis was another, even Jack Johnson on tape you can see the insane skills he had.

R. Duran was awesome, in fact when you think about good technically some fighters were and what you see now its a total shame.
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Old 04-03-2012, 06:51 PM   #35
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Default Re: If Armstrong Had Become a Four Division Champion...

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see the above posts by myself and more importantly by stonehands.
Sorry. I didn't read much posts in the thread before mine before posting. Still, Armstrong beat him before and that rematch doesn't diminish anything from Armstrong's already great before career. Thought he won anyways.

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Mickey Walker had a 4 year reign after a dubious decision from Tiger Flowers who won the title from Greb.

The NBA declared the MW throne vacant because Walker failed to defend the title in a timely fashion. The NYSAC suspended him for the same reason. Walker made things clear and easy by appearing before the NYSAC and vacating the throne in June 1931.

The NBA then ordered a tournament, which Gorilla Jones won after beating Oddone Piazza in Milwaukee, WI in Jan 1932. Walker was at ringside.

Thil beat Jones by DQ in June. Though later stripped by the NBA and NYSAC, he remained the top man as late as Dec 1935 and was generally recognized as late as October 1936.

Then things got interesting. Fred Apostoli fought Thil in September 1937 but before he did, the NYSAC made both sign an agreement that this bout was not for the title despite the fact that Thil had not lost his title in the ring and both weighed in under 160 lbs. Now why would they do that? Because they recognized Freddie Steele as champ. Apostoli did everyone a favor and stopped the unpopular Thil, and then he goes right after Steele.

Steele agreed to fight Apostoli but only if Apostoli came in over the weight limit so that Steele's claim wouldn't be at risk. As far as I'm concerned, Apostoli was already the true champ. Anyway, Apostoli stops Steele in the 9th and Steele won't give him a shot.

Apostoli goes on to beat Young Corbett III and the NYSAC finally recognizes him in '38.

Ceferino Garcia KOs Apostoli in '39.... that means that had Armstrong been given that decision, Armstrong would be the real MW champ.

Ken Overlin beats Garcia, Billy Soose beats Overlin and Soose vacates in 1941 to fight as a LHW....
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Old 04-03-2012, 06:53 PM   #36
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Default Re: If Armstrong Had Become a Four Division Champion...

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Skill, or technique however you put it has largely been lost when you look at modern day fighters.

Look at Toney success despite being out of shape most of time and you get an idea how a Charles or Walcott would do now in the heavies.

Watch Khan, whilst physically very fast and sharp, has no real boxing skill of any value and this is why Peterson was able to crowd him and win that night.

Joe Louis was another, even Jack Johnson on tape you can see the insane skills he had.

R. Duran was awesome, in fact when you think about good technically some fighters were and what you see now its a total shame.
JC Chavez too and I like when Sanchez is at his best he blends the two beautifully aswell. Not forgetting Gomez either.
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Old 04-03-2012, 06:56 PM   #37
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Default Re: If Armstrong Had Become a Four Division Champion...

Quote:
Originally Posted by Totus View Post
Skill, or technique however you put it has largely been lost when you look at modern day fighters.

Look at Toney success despite being out of shape most of time and you get an idea how a Charles or Walcott would do now in the heavies.

Watch Khan, whilst physically very fast and sharp, has no real boxing skill of any value and this is why Peterson was able to crowd him and win that night.

Joe Louis was another, even Jack Johnson on tape you can see the insane skills he had.

R. Duran was awesome, in fact when you think about good technically some fighters were and what you see now its a total shame.
There's more of an emphasis on style over substance now which probably comes from the amateur program rewarding pitter patter.

In the 20's boxers seemed to get a lot better. Since then there hasn't been a huge jump apart from the size of the heavyweight.

I think that like for like today can compare fairly well (level of journeymen, level of contenders etc) but at the top level there's noone now who can rival someone like armstrong.

However we had jones jr and sweet pea in the 90's. They're two of the most skilled fighters in all of history.
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Old 04-03-2012, 07:27 PM   #38
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Default Re: If Armstrong Had Become a Four Division Champion...

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Originally Posted by techks View Post
I think people put too much attention into that aspect of Garcia II. He beat him before and I question the legitimacy of that MW belt anyways. Fact is he already held 3 belt of 3 divisions at once and is a top 5-10 ATG. That fight doesn't change that and neither does it diminish his career either. He didn't need it for his legacy he had better wins. For the record I thought he beat him in the rematch but it wouldn't have been his best win and maybe not even top 3-5 it just would've been a cherry on top.
Although I wouldn't question his MW title claim, I'd agree with you about Garcia-Armstrong II being overblown. Garcia had some pretty damn surprising wins (Apostoli, Marshall) but at 5'6 was more of a welterweight than a middle.
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