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Old 07-11-2007, 10:02 AM   #1
Vantage_West
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Default joe frazier: underated or overated?

now joe frazier is totally sat on in this forum.
i feel that he:
beat the top contenders of his day. and was the truth at heavywieght of the early 70's.hard to hit ,hit hard left hook would decapitate you if it landed on you. was the inventor of most gaurd, defence and weavin movments of the modern boxer and was a presequite of the philly shell.
was half blind when he fought ali and foreman his left eye which was not useful when your main weapon is the left hook. had arthritis in both knees both wrists and was suffering high blood pressure which he needed prescribed drugs to stop overheating and damaging his heart which happend anyway. my number 6 heavywieght


but then some people say he:
was knocked out by a very rudimentery unskilled george foreman and was beaten by an out of prime ali.fought men who wouldnt pass nowaday standard. supposevly had a weak chin nd used his left hook all the time. couldnt box well only fight his way to the cards, was easily hit by jabs and right hands was slow plodding and ponderous.doesnt reach top 10

anyways who feels that he is overated and underated?
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Old 07-11-2007, 10:33 AM   #2
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Default Re: joe frazier: underated or overated?

I rank him as the number 8 heavyweight all time. I have never averaged where others have him, but if it is much higher than that I'd say he's overrated. If it is much lower than that, I'd say he's underrated.

Wait unti this thread runs a bit, and you may have an answer.
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Old 07-11-2007, 10:34 AM   #3
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Default Re: joe frazier: underated or overated?

I think he's underrated. People put too much weight on his loss to Foreman and excuse his biggest win, because Ali was past his prime.

I don't think either are fair at all. For one, I would pick people who were nowhjere near the class of Foreman to beat him on that night. I just think he was done. he wasn't training, he was in bad health, he was...shot. I'm not saying it's not a bad mark on his record, because it obviously is, but you have to take into consideration how badly he had deteriorated. The Ali fight took everything he had out of him. Combine that with the underconditioning for this fight and it was inevitable.

I don't like the idea that people write-off his win over Ali because he was old. Ali cemented his legacy after their first fight and went on to beat some great fighters after this. Both men weren't at their best for this fight, and Ali probably came in stronger. Frazier was already worn as a fighter, and his best years were at the last 60's. Why does no-one mention this?

Frazier was a fantastic fighter who beats most ATG's.
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Old 07-11-2007, 10:43 AM   #4
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Default Re: joe frazier: underated or overated?

I don't believe he was far past his peak when he met George, but a lot of peope seem to.

He was still in his 20' when he fought George, and he was still able to fight after the Foreman fight. I'll admit he never quite looked the same after the Foreman fight, as he did before it. He still went on to have some good performances though. I still blame his strategy against Foreman in the first fight. Frazier did better in their rematch, and this was a few years and a lot of damage later.

I still say Frazier is a top 10 all timer, but I think top 5 is too much.
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Old 07-11-2007, 11:05 AM   #5
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Default Re: joe frazier: underated or overated?

My all-time #12 Heavyweight. He had a massive advantage over most Heavies in that he fought in the golden era of the division and met top notch opposition. And with the exception of Ali and Foreman he showed his dominance*

*Norton I suppose as well; but I think that is similar(ish) to putting down Wlad or Vitali for not fighting each other...
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Old 07-11-2007, 11:07 AM   #6
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Default Re: joe frazier: underated or overated?

Quote:
Originally Posted by Jack
I don't think either are fair at all. For one, I would pick people who were nowhjere near the class of Foreman to beat him on that night. I just think he was done. he wasn't training, he was in bad health, he was...shot.
You make it sound like he should have been on an invalid pension or life support Jack. To be honest i think you exaggerate a bit on this one.
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Old 07-11-2007, 11:07 AM   #7
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Default Re: joe frazier: underated or overated?

well in the 2nd foreman fight he did a floyd patterson he was in his punchers stance but was dancing at the same time. using a sort of jab jumping in striking and gettin out quick he showed a great performance on how a man who had fought in a style for 18 years could change it up and make it a different boxers friendly style.
i place him so highly becuase of his domination of the division against the best....and i mean the best especially for a man who was a cruiser wieght.
he had beaten ali who wasnt that far of from being out of prime. he had beaten bonavena and quarry. so it wasnt like he was out of it and frazier took the brunt of the force and took it back. if you look at the thrilla fight when joes' right eye closed...tht was it he was legaly bling in the left he was a blind fighter just using his instincts to fight and after all that he was still in a chance to win.
actually has he ever been outboxed? ive never seen him get out worked or outskilled.

hard to beat only big opwershot men could win lennox ,george,vitali (not wlad as he doesnt push his man away like vitali did), maybe larry , maybe louis....people who are big stay away and land big right hands,with a jab to stay clear of him. out of any other fighter i see few others beatin ghim marciano didnt have the handpeed or defencive mnouvers tyson didnt have the abilty to put enough punishment on him.
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Old 07-11-2007, 11:10 AM   #8
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Default Re: joe frazier: underated or overated?

Quote:
Originally Posted by JohnThomas1
You make it sound like he should have been on an invalid pension or life support Jack. To be honest i think you exaggerate a bit on this one.
  • legally blind in left eye
  • ****ed knees
  • high blood pressure
  • arthritis
  • and not to mention the drugs to keep him in training in the gym or in a fight
yeah a pension doesnt sound that bad
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Old 07-11-2007, 12:55 PM   #9
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Default Re: joe frazier: underated or overated?

A bit underrated. Wins against Ellis,Quarry,Bugner,Foster,Bonavena,Mathis,Chuvalo,Machen. Victories over those journeymen with names don't sound bad.
Ali was just too tricky and Foreman too powerful and big for Frazier. Although he had some tremendous shots against Ali and could take loads of punches. Unfortunately he couldn't take Foreman's monster-haymaker.
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Old 07-11-2007, 01:49 PM   #10
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Default Re: joe frazier: underated or overated?

Quote:
Originally Posted by Vantage_West
now joe frazier is totally sat on in this forum.
i feel that he:
beat the top contenders of his day. and was the truth at heavywieght of the early 70's.hard to hit ,hit hard left hook would decapitate you if it landed on you. was the inventor of most gaurd, defence and weavin movments of the modern boxer and was a presequite of the philly shell.
was half blind when he fought ali and foreman his left eye which was not useful when your main weapon is the left hook. had arthritis in both knees both wrists and was suffering high blood pressure which he needed prescribed drugs to stop overheating and damaging his heart which happend anyway. my number 6 heavywieght


but then some people say he:
was knocked out by a very rudimentery unskilled george foreman and was beaten by an out of prime ali.fought men who wouldnt pass nowaday standard. supposevly had a weak chin nd used his left hook all the time. couldnt box well only fight his way to the cards, was easily hit by jabs and right hands was slow plodding and ponderous.doesnt reach top 10

anyways who feels that he is overated and underated?
Frziers most famous fights are the three with Ali and the two with Foreman,five fights of which he won one,after beating a comebacking Ali in his best fight Frazier defended against Terry Daniels and Ron Stander,this hurts his legacy in my book,one of his number one contenders wa s Leotis Martin ,Fraziers people didnt want that fight ,nor one against an aging Liston,Frazier a great fighter ,but he just makes my topten,his wins over Quarry were impressive but Manuel Ramos and Dave Zygliewiz dont cut it for me.
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Old 07-11-2007, 01:57 PM   #11
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Default Re: joe frazier: underated or overated?

Quote:
Originally Posted by Vantage_West
my number 6 heavywieght


anyways who feels that he is overated and underated?

I have him at 7.

I was speaking about this the other day in the "your 11-20" heavyweights thread.

He has the biggest win in heavyweight history and an absolutley nightmarish style. Coulpe these things with his insane bravery and I think your talking about a fighter straight from Hell - Ali (#1) would agree.
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Old 07-11-2007, 02:55 PM   #12
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Default Re: joe frazier: underated or overated?

Quote:
Originally Posted by Vantage_West
  • legally blind in left eye
  • ****ed knees
  • high blood pressure
  • arthritis
  • and not to mention the drugs to keep him in training in the gym or in a fight
yeah a pension doesnt sound that bad
very interesting.can you qualify all of this?
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Old 07-11-2007, 03:14 PM   #13
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Default Re: joe frazier: underated or overated?

I would have him around number 6 heavyweight of all time, and above Rocky Marciano for what it's worth.
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Old 07-11-2007, 03:55 PM   #14
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Default Re: joe frazier: underated or overated?

Ellis, Quarry, Foster etc were journeymen. LOL. Frazier was undefeated til he lost to Foreman. He only lost to 2 fighters - both all-time greats. He should be in the top 10.
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Old 07-11-2007, 04:00 PM   #15
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Default Re: joe frazier: underated or overated?

[quote]
Quote:
Originally Posted by KTFO
A bit underrated. Wins against Ellis,Quarry,Bugner,Foster,Bonavena,Mathis,Chuvalo,Machen. Victories over those journeymen with names don't sound bad.

These men were NOT journeyman....
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