Boxing  

Forum Home Boxing Forum European British Classic Aussie MMA Training
Go Back   Boxing News 24 Forum > Boxing > Classic Boxing Forum


Reply
 
Thread Tools
Old 07-12-2007, 05:58 PM   #46
Ramon Rojo
Gatekeeper
ESB Full Member
 
Join Date: Dec 2005
Location: Finland
Posts: 312
vCash: 75
Default Re: joe frazier: underated or overated?

He´s very underrated by some people here.

Anyone who doesn´t have Frazier in their top10 alltime heavyweight list is underrating him.
Ramon Rojo is offline  Top
Reply With Quote
Sponsored Links
Old 07-12-2007, 06:44 PM   #47
biggamejames
Guest
 
Posts: n/a
vCash:
Default Re: joe frazier: underated or overated?

I wouldd say that time has underrated his value and I am a BIG Ali fan but Frazier just misses the the top 5 but Definitely a top 10 ATG just on the Ali triology just a litte tidbit about frazier:He called out Ali b4 Ali's exile and they didnt want no parts of Frazier and he broke Holmes ribs sparring with him and that's why Holmes went to Ali.
 Top
Reply With Quote
Old 07-13-2007, 02:50 AM   #48
fists of fury
Champion
East Side Guru
 
Join Date: Oct 2006
Location: March for Revenge
Posts: 5,992
vCash: 1887
Default Re: joe frazier: underated or overated?

[quote=biggamejames]Definitely a top 10 ATG just on the Ali triology quote]

I rest my case.

Last edited by deram; 03-04-2006 at 09:19 PM.
fists of fury is offline  Top
Reply With Quote
Old 07-13-2007, 04:42 AM   #49
Senya13
Belt holder
ESB Addict
 
Join Date: Jul 2005
Location: Russia
Posts: 3,759
vCash: 1210
Default Re: joe frazier: underated or overated?

High level of competition (outside of Ali and Foreman)? Haha.
Senya13 is offline  Top
Reply With Quote
Old 07-26-2007, 08:43 AM   #50
Holmes' Jab
Master Jabber
ESB Addict
 
Join Date: Nov 2006
Posts: 2,551
vCash: 1000
Default Re: joe frazier: underated or overated?

Grossly under-rated, certainly amongst ESB circles.

Far too much is made of his two losses to Foreman- who in truth was taylor made to steamroller him (and most swarmers), Frazier was near enough completely shot by the return contest anyway, the way in which he kept rising from the canvas umpteen times against Foreman was couragous in the extreme (some would say silly!?). He possessed probably the biggest fighting heart of any HW who ever existed, was also a powerful puncher (fearsome left hook), hellishly awkward to fight against and good at evading punches. His prime also lasted longer than the general consensus suggests.

People do tend to forget how good his record was pre-Ali fight and the manner of most of those victories. Machen, Quarry, Bonavena (x2), Ellis (x2) and Chuvalo- some pretty impressive names to have on your resume. The depth of which: especially in terms of record against Top ranked contenders is certainly better than, say Foreman. FOTC vs Ali was the pinnicle- not too many fighters in history would have defeated Joe that night. He also gave him two other hellish fights, Manilla being extremely close before Futch wisely pulled Frazier out (with Ali exausted)

Frazier is at #6 on my all time list of Heavyweights.
Holmes' Jab is offline  Top
Reply With Quote
Old 07-26-2007, 10:20 AM   #51
ironchamp
Belt holder
ESB Addict
 
Join Date: Sep 2004
Location: New York
Posts: 2,825
vCash: 1230
Default Re: joe frazier: underated or overated?

Quote:
Originally Posted by fists of fury
Honestly, I think he's a bit overrated, assuming he makes the top 10 more often than not.

What doesn't sit well with me is that people are all too ready to make excuses for his devastating loss to Foreman. Hey, George fought plenty of guys he didn't drop 6 times in 2 rounds, so why Frazier?

It's been said earlier that he was shot. SHOT? Hardly. He was competitive twice against Ali AFTER Foreman. Maybe a little overconfident and unprepared, but hardly shot. Still though, even a slightly unprepared and overconfident Frazier should have done better than he did. Much better. he managed to throw one solitary left hook of note (To which George after the fight said: "You mean THAT was his left hook?") and was completely devastated in a fashion that draws parallels with Dempsey-Willard.
Perhaps Frazier WAS made to order for Foreman, but some say the same about Arguello and Pryor, Holyfield and Tyson or Trinidad and Hopkins, but at least the losers, or the made-to-order guy in these cases, were competitive although they ultimately lost. At worst, they were competitive for a while. Joe was not even for one moment competitive with Foreman.

Should an ATG at any time, lose his title in such one-sided circumstances? What helps Frazier's legacy immeasurably is that he lost embarrasingly to George Foreman, another man more people than not have in their ATG lists) and had two thrilling fights with Ali, whose pedigree in my eyes can't be questioned. (Their second fight wasn't that compelling, imo)
However, it's almost by association that Frazier becomes an ATG if you ask me, because he fought two of them and did very well against one of them. Hell, even Ken Norton gets an occasional mention in ATG debates almost purely for beating Ali once, who wasn't in top condition for the first fight.
Seriously, take the Ali win away and what is Joe's legacy? It's pretty decent, but it loses a whole lot in the transition. If a fighter is truly a great, you could take his best win away and he should still have enough left for his legacy to back up the claim to stand without that win. (I'm not articulating that well, but I think you guys will get what I'm trying to say.)

Was Joe somewhat fortunate when Ali was stripped of his title? I think so. It gave him an opportunity to become champion and establish a real name for himself without any really stiff competition. I don't think Joe would have become champ if Ali had not been forced to retire for three years. He was clearly the best heavy during that time, or at least of the active fighters, but there weren't any really dangerous fighters during that time either. Quick - what did Buster Mathis do aside from fight Joe for the title? Jimmy Ellis? Sure, decent enough, but they were not outstanding fighters, or even very good ones.
Bobby Foster wasn't even a blown-up light-heavyweight - he was a light-heavyweight!
Dave Zyglewicz? Ron Standers? Terry Daniels? Somehow Frazier gets a free pass for fighting these very mediocre fighters. Louis, Holmes and Marciano among others have been slammed for fighting so-called weak opposition, but almost nobody mention's Frazier's soft touches. Instead, the focus is on the Ali fights.

His win over Ali was magnificent; I cannot argue that, but it just wasn't the same Ali. He had only 2 fights under his belt before that and had yet to hit his straps in the 70's. Yet, he still managed to send Frazier to the hospital for a week and give him a hell of a fight. After that, he lost 2/3 and got dropped a total of 8 times over two fights by Foreman.
As I said, his legacy has benefitted enormously from fighting in a very competitive era (even though Joe did not fight many of the 'names' back then) and from fighting two of the most renowned names in the last 40 years. He won one and lost the others against Ali and Foreman. Norton did no worse than that, and actually did better (imo) against Ali than Joe did.

The way I'm carrying on you'd imagine I'm a Frazier hater. I'm not. I like the guy and I admire his tenacity, guts and willingness to fight. His left was a beaut. He gave us two classic fights and one horrible disaster of a fight.
If I were in the habit of drawing up lists, I'd put him somewhere in the top 15 and in a head-to-head sense maybe around the same, maybe a bit lower. I think that's fair.
Sorry, but he dosn't cut it as a true great for me.
I agree with most of what you are saying here. But for he does make my top 10 list although there are times I can place him as low as 11 and as high as 9.

There isnt much I can add to this but I do appreciate the fact that you pointed out that Frazier gets a pass for fighting in a competitive era. His losses to Foreman undermine his standings IMO especially the first one where he gets blown out in the most embarrasing fashion. Do I think he's overrated? Sometimes but if you don't acknowledge he's an ATG or at least a top 11 fighter then yes you are underrating him.
ironchamp is offline  Top
Reply With Quote
Old 07-26-2007, 02:57 PM   #52
C. M. Clay II
Manassah's finest!
ESB Senior Member
 
Join Date: Sep 2006
Location: Brooklyn, New York
Posts: 1,138
vCash: 1000
Default Re: joe frazier: underated or overated?

Quote:
Originally Posted by dave krieg
When ever you mention Frazier beating Ali people wil say Ali was past his prime.Ali was about 29 or 30 and yet that is past his prime?Ali is the only fighter in boxing history who was past this prime at 30.
Quote:
Originally Posted by dave krieg
If anything Ali was alot fresher than most 30 year old guys since he was away from boxing for 3 years giving his body a chance to heal and rest.
Quote:
Originally Posted by dave krieg
The point being Frazier destroy Ali when they were both in their primes.
Quote:
Originally Posted by dave krieg
Frazier would never be able to beat somebody like Vitali Klitschko or even Wlad.I doubt he could beat Lewis
Quote:
Originally Posted by dave krieg
Even a guy like Gerry Cooney would probably knock him out because of the height and power he posses.




























C. M. Clay II is offline  Top
Reply With Quote
Old 07-26-2007, 03:25 PM   #53
mr. magoo
Undisputed Champion
East Side VIP
 
Join Date: Jan 2007
Location: Chicago, Illinois USA
Posts: 13,416
vCash: 1000
Default Re: joe frazier: underated or overated?

Quote:
Originally Posted by dave krieg
Norton,Frazier and Foreman are all underated just to make Ali seem better than he was.When ever you mention Frazier beating Ali people wil say Ali was past his prime.Ali was about 29 or 30 and yet that is past his prime?Ali is the only fighter in boxing history who was past this prime at 30.If anything Ali was alot fresher than most 30 year old guys since he was away from boxing for 3 years giving his body a chance to heal and rest.The point being Frazier destroy Ali when they were both in their primes.After Foreman beat Frazier he should of never fought again.He was done.
Frazier was better than people say he is now but he would always struggle against guys who were bigger in weight and height than he was.He would never be able to beat somebody like Vitali Klitschko or even Wlad.I doubt he could beat Lewis or even a guy like Gerry Cooney would probably knock him out because of the height and power he posses.
Frazier was a good fighter who gets underated when compared to Ali but gets overated when attempting to match him with other big punchers in boxing history.
This is one of the most poorly written and misguided posts that I've seen on this forum. Is it a joke?
mr. magoo is offline  Top
Reply With Quote
Old 07-26-2007, 04:02 PM   #54
janitor
P4P King
East Side VIP
 
Join Date: Feb 2006
Posts: 21,073
vCash: 1000
Default Re: joe frazier: underated or overated?

I think he is under rated, especialy relative to subsequent champions.

I am verry much a beleiver that the heavyweights of the 70s are over rated relative to other eras but looking at Frazier I only see substance.
janitor is offline  Top
Reply With Quote
Old 07-26-2007, 04:29 PM   #55
Vantage_West
ヒップホッププロデューサー
East Side VIP
 
Join Date: Jul 2006
Location: 黒人文化の恋人のサンプリ
Posts: 10,024
vCash: 1000
Default Re: joe frazier: underated or overated?

Quote:
Originally Posted by surreal deal
very interesting.can you qualify all of this?

i thought it was common knowledge . but he was followed around by a doctor in his later years. if you look in documentaries of the manilla fight you'll see this white guy in the background thats his doctor.

i know not very incriminating but i will find somthing
Vantage_West is offline  Top
Reply With Quote
Old 07-26-2007, 04:46 PM   #56
Vantage_West
ヒップホッププロデューサー
East Side VIP
 
Join Date: Jul 2006
Location: 黒人文化の恋人のサンプリ
Posts: 10,024
vCash: 1000
Default Re: joe frazier: underated or overated?

Quote:
Originally Posted by Sakura
Protest, about you're saying that wlad dont win Frasier..this guy is smaller than CHRIS BYRD about 5'11, 205,5 lb...wlad will kill him, with his jab..frasier never get close enought.
but he has somthing that wlad fears above all else....left hook

not just a left hook but maybe the greatest left hook in heavywieght history

you forget his hands speed his defence and non-stop offence look at byrd he is the purest boxer in the heavywieghts uses a jab and phillie roll to move and counter and is southpaw which is weak to the right hand, joe frazier is next to your lungs the whole fight he was only koed by foreman who manhandled him which wlad wasnt good at doing.

and this jab will keep him away??? he has fought ali,foreman,foster maybe the best jabbers at the tpo end of the scale of all time...i can tbelive you think that a JAB stops frazier
Vantage_West is offline  Top
Reply With Quote
Old 07-26-2007, 04:50 PM   #57
Vantage_West
ヒップホッププロデューサー
East Side VIP
 
Join Date: Jul 2006
Location: 黒人文化の恋人のサンプリ
Posts: 10,024
vCash: 1000
Default Re: joe frazier: underated or overated?

Quote:
Originally Posted by Sakura
Maybe i'm wrong but i wanna see that day, when wlad will lost, much smaller opponent, like Byrd or Frasier size fighter. Lamon is by the way, much heavier fighter with very good chin (Frasier chin is not that good)and good punch.

Seem's like almost everyone thinks that you can break wlad by punch to the body. It's much easier to say than do it. You must take hard punishment to do that and there is no many guys in history, who can do it, or maybe not anyone. klitchko with Stewart is strategy is almost unbeaten.
fraziers chin not that good!!! you act like "well everyone knows that huh" what an arrogant thing to say
Vantage_West is offline  Top
Reply With Quote
Old 07-26-2007, 04:57 PM   #58
Sakura
Belt holder
ESB Addict
 
Join Date: Nov 2006
Posts: 1,803
vCash: 1000
Default Re: joe frazier: underated or overated?

Frasier is good fighter and i'll take him over many same size ATG fighters, but Lewis and Klitchkos are definetly to big to win.

If wlad fights...jab,jab and moving backwards or to the side..Frasier never reach him and he eat to much punches..

Wlads have much better and more effective jab than Foreman or anyone else,except Ali or Holmes.
Sakura is offline  Top
Reply With Quote
Old 07-26-2007, 05:00 PM   #59
Vantage_West
ヒップホッププロデューサー
East Side VIP
 
Join Date: Jul 2006
Location: 黒人文化の恋人のサンプリ
Posts: 10,024
vCash: 1000
Default Re: joe frazier: underated or overated?

Quote:
Originally Posted by Sakura
Frasier is good fighter and i'll take him over many same size ATG fighters, but Lewis and Klitchkos are definetly to big to win.

If wlad fights...jab,jab and moving backwards or to the side..Frasier never reach him and he eat to much punches..

Wlads have much better and more effective jab than Foreman or anyone else,except Ali or Holmes.
the men who beat him wer men were big but stood in your way ali was fleet footed the first time and became much more flat footed and more a harder target to move away.

lewis was an amazing infighter wlad and vitali are not they are outside fighters launching the firearms form miles away...this would get beaten by a springing left hook.
Vantage_West is offline  Top
Reply With Quote
Old 07-26-2007, 05:04 PM   #60
Vantage_West
ヒップホッププロデューサー
East Side VIP
 
Join Date: Jul 2006
Location: 黒人文化の恋人のサンプリ
Posts: 10,024
vCash: 1000
Default Re: joe frazier: underated or overated?

Quote:
Originally Posted by surreal deal
very interesting.can you qualify all of this?
cool i got some stuff

thisis an arcticle about fraziers health in an interview
[Only registered and activated users can see links. ]
Was your diabetes diagnosed while you were still actively boxing, and if so, how did it affect your athletic career?

I have monthly examinations and if I feel bad for any reason, I will see my doctor as soon as possible.

How did the high blood pressure affect your boxing?

I stay busy traveling around the country for personal appearances, card/trade shows, endorsements and speaking engagements. I enjoy making the fans happy, plus I think it does something for me. I love life and I love people.

What treatment did you receive originally for diabetes?

Micronase [A drug that stimulates the pancreas to produce more insulin] and Minoxidal [a drug which relaxes small blood vessels].

What treatment do you receive now?

My condition today is great!I would like to fight against Evander Holyfield tomorrow. Today I weigh 230 lbs.--people tell me that I'm a "small piece of leather that is well put together." I've stayed on the same track I've been on since my boxing days, [getting] on the floor and [working out with the guys in the gym] to keep them fit and myself [too].
[Only registered and activated users can see links. ]

Do you take any medication for your diabetes?

I have to be careful of what I eat. This is the only restriction that I can think of when it comes to diabetes.

Are there any special routines or restrictions that you follow as a result of your diabetes (i.e., special diet, regular check-ups, limitations on your physical activity, etc.)?

[No, it was diagnosed in 1988]. However, I did have high blood pressure ever since I started fighting.



Do you take any medication for your high blood pressure?

[A number, including:] Procardia [a calcium channel blocker that reduces normal artery pressure], Accupril [which reduces resistance in arteries], Clonidine [which relaxes and allows for the expansion of blood vessel walls], SlowK [a drug which treats potassium deficiency], and Catapres [which relaxes and expands blood vessel walls]. [But], I did not take any medication until 1988 for diabetes or high blood pressure.

Last edited by TKOking; 03-28-2006 at 11:42 PM.
Vantage_West is offline  Top
Reply With Quote
Reply

Boxing News 24 Forum > Boxing > Classic Boxing Forum

Thread Tools

Posting Rules
You may not post new threads
You may not post replies
You may not post attachments
You may not edit your posts

BB code is On
Smilies are On
[IMG] code is Off
HTML code is Off

Forum Jump





All times are GMT -4. The time now is 11:08 PM.


Powered by vBulletin® Version 3.8.0
Copyright ©2000 - 2014, Jelsoft Enterprises Ltd.
Boxing News 24 Forum 2013