joe frazier: underated or overated?

[ChrisPontius]

Originally Posted by janitor

In order to hit Wlad would have to expose himself to Frazier getting inside.

No he wouldn't. Wlad's arms coupled with the way he fights (tall, long punches) and Frazier (short stature, short punches, hooks) results in Wlad's range being only twice that of Frazier. Watch Wlad's fight with Brewster, he hit him all the time while barely being hit in return. Now Brewster is no Frazier of course, but you get the point.

Originally Posted by janitor

I believe that he could be presented with a stylistic en passe by Frazier.

I don't think so, he'll potshot Frazier from the outside while staying away and tieing him up on the inside to prevent Frazier from getting off.

Originally Posted by Duodenum

I generally have Louis at number four, and Frazier at number five, but I sometimes reverse that order.

Louis at #4? That's low, who do you have higher than him? If i had to guess from your posts, i'd say Holmes, Ali and Dempsey.

[Maxmomer]

He was an excellent fighter.

[mcvey]

Originally Posted by JohnThomas1

Fair call. Lewis hits far harder than Ali, but by the same token Tua has a vaunted chin. Frazier came prepared to practically die if he had to in order to win.

Far harder,but nowhere near as often,Ali said of Frazier,"whatever the price he will pay it".

[JohnThomas1]

Originally Posted by mcvey

Far harder,but nowhere near as often,Ali said of Frazier,"whatever the price he will pay it".

Yeah, Frazier's long term intensity is frightening.

[mcvey]

Originally Posted by Vantage_West

but he has somthing that wlad fears above all else....left hook

not just a left hook but maybe the greatest left hook in heavywieght history

you forget his hands speed his defence and non-stop offence look at byrd he is the purest boxer in the heavywieghts uses a jab and phillie roll to move and counter and is southpaw which is weak to the right hand, joe frazier is next to your lungs the whole fight he was only koed by foreman who manhandled him which wlad wasnt good at doing.

and this jab will keep him away??? he has fought ali,foreman,foster maybe the best jabbers at the tpo end of the scale of all time...i can tbelive you think that a JAB stops frazier

"The greatest left hook in history"who exactly out of top ten rated Heavies did Frazier put down for the count of ten?

[Drew101]

I generally rate him around 8-9, but I think that I might underrate him slightly in terms of head-to-head matchups. Foreman, and perhaps Lewis notwithstanding, I can't think of two many heavyweights in history who wouldn't have an easy time with him at or near his absolute best.

[Duodenum]

In Ali's 1975 autobiography, "The Greatest: My Own Story" ghostwritten by Richard Durham, Frazier is quoted as claiming during a long drive he took Muhammad on during Ali's exile that he was the fastest closing heavyweight champion of all time coming forward. While I think Dempsey actually has that distinction, this claim for Smoke is not far off at all. (My favorite line in the book has Ali thinking while Foreman is struggling to beat the count that, "No referee could count ten over Joe Frazier as long as his body had blood in it," or words to that effect. After this book was published, Joe once again demonstrated the veracity of that statement in his rematch with Foreman.)

As I've discussed previously, I'm not sure that Smoke could have ever taken George in a first time matchup, although he demonstrated against Stander that he could perform extremely well against a powerful advance. (Just check out his excellent footwork at the end of round four on youtube! After watching his brilliant outmaneuvering of the bull Stander, it's easy to understand why he was expected by most to repel Foreman's challenge. In Smoke's final successful title defense, he showed he was perfectly capable of playing the matador's role.) But while a peak Joe might not have been able to take George in a first time bout, I have always believed Frazier would have defeated more of history's other greats than Foreman might, so that's why I rate Joe higher, despite the head to head outcomes.

[round15]

Originally Posted by Duodenum

In Ali's 1975 autobiography, "The Greatest: My Own Story" ghostwritten by Richard Durham, Frazier is quoted as claiming during a long drive he took Muhammad on during Ali's exile that he was the fastest closing heavyweight champion of all time coming forward. While I think Dempsey actually has that distinction, this claim for Smoke is not far off at all. (My favorite line in the book has Ali thinking while Foreman is struggling to beat the count that, "No referee could count ten over Joe Frazier as long as his body had blood in it," or words to that effect. After this book was published, Joe once again demonstrated the veracity of that statement in his rematch with Foreman.)

As I've discussed previously, I'm not sure that Smoke could have ever taken George in a first time matchup, although he demonstrated against Stander that he could perform extremely well against a powerful advance. (Just check out his excellent footwork at the end of round four on youtube! After watching his brilliant outmaneuvering of the bull Stander, it's easy to understand why he was expected by most to repel Foreman's challenge. In Smoke's final successful title defense, he showed he was perfectly capable of playing the matador's role.) But while a peak Joe might not have been able to take George in a first time bout, I have always believed Frazier would have defeated more of history's other greats than Foreman might, so that's why I rate Joe higher, despite the head to head outcomes.

Prime Joe Frazier at 203-208 lbs gives every heavyweight in history a very tough fight, even Foreman.

[Curtis Lowe]

Originally Posted by groove

Ellis, Quarry, Foster etc were journeymen. LOL. Frazier was undefeated til he lost to Foreman. He only lost to 2 fighters - both all-time greats. He should be in the top 10.

Journeyman? You have either had a lapse in judgment or just don't know what your talking about. Foster was one of the greatest lightheavys of all time, Ellis won a version of the heavyweight title via a tournament and was a top contender for years and Quarry was a top 10 heavyweight for years and was the #1 contender on more than one occasion.

Think before you type in the future!

[Curtis Lowe]

Originally Posted by KTFO

Sure they were. Maybe A- or B-class journeymen. But journeymen.

You are an apparent idiot.

[yancey]

Originally Posted by I Am Legend

He's overrated and has a chin made from pure glass.

[Longhhorn71]

The problem with a Top 10 rating in any sport is as time goes by more quality fighters (& teams) become available to bump out other greats just because of familiarity.

If modern boxing starts in 1895, then the sport is 112 years old and that is a lot of champions.

All those poor quality films of the oldtimers don't do justice to them....the left hooks and right crosses they threw knocked out opponents the same way the same punches do today.

So was Frazier a super Champion ?, to me me YES, just like Ali, Louis, Dempsey, The Rock, Tyson, Lewis, etc, and NOT like Terrell, Jimmy Ellis, and the "this week champions" of the Alphabet Boys we have today.

[yancey]

Originally Posted by I Am Legend

Seriously, the ONE big puncher on his record bounced him around the ring. Even Oscar " I suck and lost every time i stepped up in class" Bonavena hurt him very very badly.

he would be utterly destroyed against virtually all of the divisions power punchers.

[yancey]

Originally Posted by I Am Legend

Idiot.

[Mendoza]

Originally Posted by Duodenum

In Ali's 1975 autobiography, "The Greatest: My Own Story" ghostwritten by Richard Durham, Frazier is quoted as claiming during a long drive he took Muhammad on during Ali's exile that he was the fastest closing heavyweight champion of all time coming forward. While I think Dempsey actually has that distinction, this claim for Smoke is not far off at all. (My favorite line in the book has Ali thinking while Foreman is struggling to beat the count that, "No referee could count ten over Joe Frazier as long as his body had blood in it," or words to that effect. After this book was published, Joe once again demonstrated the veracity of that statement in his rematch with Foreman.)

As I've discussed previously, I'm not sure that Smoke could have ever taken George in a first time matchup, although he demonstrated against Stander that he could perform extremely well against a powerful advance. (Just check out his excellent footwork at the end of round four on youtube! After watching his brilliant outmaneuvering of the bull Stander, it's easy to understand why he was expected by most to repel Foreman's challenge. In Smoke's final successful title defense, he showed he was perfectly capable of playing the matador's role.) But while a peak Joe might not have been able to take George in a first time bout, I have always believed Frazier would have defeated more of history's other greats than Foreman might, so that's why I rate Joe higher, despite the head to head outcomes.

Stander wasn't a great fighter, but he was game. I can’t see Stander as a top 10 fighter today. Stander had his share of moment’s vs Frazier. At one point he even buckled Frazier’s knees.

While Frazier had great closing speed ( He chewed up and spit out smaller boxer types ), I think he lack of elite level power, combined with a suspect chin to punchers would make it extremely difficult for him to defeat the bigger / stronger / more durable punchers.

However Frazier isn't gimped in a head to head sense. He was a boxer's worst nightmare, full of stamina and relentless pressure. Jimmy Young had the right stuff to foil Foreman. Billy Conn had the right stuff to bother Joe Louis. Neither Conn nor Young does well vs Frazier.