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Old 06-06-2014, 03:42 PM   #31
Seamus
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Default Re: Boxing news article about james j jeffries.

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Being knocked completely out of the ring ,landing on a writers table with the wind forced out of you,tearing muscles in your back, badly bruising your spine and rippiing open your rectum ,then climbing back in and kayoing your opponent,strikes me as reacting pretty well under pressure.
But what do I know?
Well, with the help of the whole of press row.

We won't even get into how he got cold****ed by the possibly the most skill-less heavyweight to fight for the title.

But, yeah, props to him making a recovery there in the dire situation in which he put himself.

Rectum? I barely knew him.
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Old 06-06-2014, 04:12 PM   #32
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Default Re: Boxing news article about james j jeffries.

So how much did Jeffries have left for the Johnson fight?

The bottom line is that we donít know, because it was literaly the only fight of his comeback, and it was against an all time great in his prime. When you loose to an all time great past your prime, there is always the question of whether it was because you were shot, or they were simply that good. Yes we can reasonably infer that he must have gone back, but we cannot quantify by how much.

In the case of the Ali of the Holmes fight for example, we have the Berbick fight as a yardstick to measure it against. In the case of the Dempsey Tunney fights, we have the Sharkey fight as a yardstick, and so forth. If Jeffries had taken a tune up, or been tempted back into the ring for one last payday agaisnt Luther MCCarthy, we would have a much better idea!
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Old 06-06-2014, 05:17 PM   #33
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Default Re: Boxing news article about james j jeffries.

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So how much did Jeffries have left for the Johnson fight?

The bottom line is that we donít know, because it was literaly the only fight of his comeback, and it was against an all time great in his prime. When you loose to an all time great past your prime, there is always the question of whether it was because you were shot, or they were simply that good. Yes we can reasonably infer that he must have gone back, but we cannot quantify by how much.

In the case of the Ali of the Holmes fight for example, we have the Berbick fight as a yardstick to measure it against. In the case of the Dempsey Tunney fights, we have the Sharkey fight as a yardstick, and so forth. If Jeffries had taken a tune up, or been tempted back into the ring for one last payday agaisnt Luther MCCarthy, we would have a much better idea!
Regarding the Ali comeback fights it isnt that simple,Ali was taking
mis-prescribed medication to lose weight prior to the Holmes fight that could have actually killed him.
He was in better shape against Berbick, medically and physically but simply had nothing to hurt Berbick with, he pushed his right hand like a girl .

McCarty was 18 years old when Jeffries climbed into the ring to face Johnson, he did not turn pro till 1911 a year after their fight
It was at the end of 1912 when McCarty posted wins over name opponents .
Willard had beaten no one , Kaufman was relegated to sparring partner status, and Flynn was absolutely hammered that year by Johnson. Jeffries would have been 39 by then. I think that fight would have ensured he was permanently out of the equation as far as anyone's top 20 was concerned!

Post Johnson I think any reasonably decent heavyweight would have trounced Jeffries he took a sustained beating from Johnson and both his confidence and unbeatable aura were shattered beyond repair.
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Old 06-06-2014, 05:24 PM   #34
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Default Re: Boxing news article about james j jeffries.

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Well, with the help of the whole of press row.

We won't even get into how he got cold****ed by the possibly the most skill-less heavyweight to fight for the title.

But, yeah, props to him making a recovery there in the dire situation in which he put himself.

Rectum? I barely knew him.
Firpo was crude but hit hard enough to drop anyone.

Dempsey went into hospital after that fight to have an operation to have an anal fissure repaired ,a direct result of that fight. He reacted instinctively when he was under pressure,punch,punch, punch ,and keep on punching !
S ,you are slipping first Patterson misdiagnosed , now Dempsey.
Maybe you need to lay off the firewater?
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Old 06-06-2014, 05:27 PM   #35
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Default Re: Boxing news article about james j jeffries.

[quote]
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Regarding the Ali comeback fights it isnt that simple,Ali was taking mis-prescribed medication to lose weight prior to the Holmes fight that could have actually killed him.
You are focusing too much on the detail, rather than the overall point.

Do you agree that the Johnson fight being the only fight of Jeffries comeback, makes it hard to judge how much he had left, and why he fared as he did?


Quote:
McCarty was 18 years old when Jeffries climbed into the ring to face Johnson, he did not turn pro till 1911 a year after their fight
It was at the end of 1912 when McCarty posted wins over name opponents .
Willard had beaten no one , Kaufman was relegated to sparring partner status, and Flynn was absolutely hammered that year by Johnson. Jeffries would have been 39 by then. I think that fight would have ensured he was permanently out of the equation as far as anyone's top 20 was concerned!
I used McCarthy as an example, because he was the only contender that I am aware of post Johnson Jeffries, getting an offer to fight.

Lets say Kaufmann then?

Quote:
Post Johnson I think any reasonably decent heavyweight would have trounced Jeffries he took a sustained beating from Johnson and both his confidence and unbeatable aura were shattered beyond repair.
You could be right, but my point is that we can never prove it.

It migth be the case that he would still have beaten the white hopes of the day, based on power and intangibles?
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Old 06-06-2014, 05:29 PM   #36
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Default Re: Boxing news article about james j jeffries.

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That was more the limitation of Dempsey's skillset getting exposed than him growing old.

Jess was 37 1/2 years old and completely inactive when he took on Dempsey. Still, had he not absorbed quite the punishment that he did in the first, he might have won. I do think a younger Jess has a good chance of beating Dempsey. Willard actually did pretty well in rounds 2 and 3 but the damage had been done.
" Had he not absorbed quite the punishment that he did in the first"? There's no argument here, he did, and the punishment rendered him incapable of mounting a winning fight afterwards and that's that.
End of.

Wiillard would always be cannon fodder for Dempsey because Jack feasted on huge, slow moving men.
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Old 06-06-2014, 05:34 PM   #37
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Default Re: Boxing news article about james j jeffries.

[quote=janitor;16294951]
Quote:

You are focusing too much on the detail, rather than the overall point.

Do you agree that the Johnson fight being the only fight of Jeffries comeback, makes it hard to judge how much he had left, and why he fared as he did?




I used McCarthy as an example, because he was the only contender that I am aware of post Johnson Jeffries, getting an offer to fight.

Lets say Kaufmann then?



You could be right, but my point is that we can never prove it.

It migth be the case that he would still have beaten the white hopes of the day, based on power and intangibles?

What power? Johnson said he only felt ONE punch that registered, a body shot in the 6th or 7th round,?[can't remember now,and I'm too lazy to look it up] but it was the ONLY round that Jeffries won.
Intangibles? That sounds like," I think he might have done better against others but I cant give a valid reason why."
I'm focusing on the facts as I see them.
Jeffries was a victim of lots of things that day an erosion of stamina and power,a lack of confidence ,a mental collapse under the enormous pressure to save the white race,nervous tension that destroyed his judgement of distance and "made his head feel queer".

You name it he experienced it.

Rickard wanted to put Jeffries back in with Johnson within a year,arguing the rounds he had under his belt would have improved his subsequent performance.Jeffries, very sensibly told him to **** off!
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Old 06-06-2014, 05:53 PM   #38
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Default Re: Boxing news article about james j jeffries.

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What power? Johnson said he only felt ONE punch that registered, a body shot in the 6th or 7th round,?[can't remember now,and I'm too lazy to look it up] but it was the ONLY round that Jeffries won.
Intangibles? That sounds like," I think he might have done better against others but I cant give a valid reason why."
I'm focusing on the facts as I see them.
Jeffries was a victim of lots of things that day an erosion of stamina and power,a lack of confidence ,a mental collapse under the enormous pressure to save the white race,nervous tension that destroyed his judgement of distance and "made his head feel queer".

You name it he experienced it.

Rickard wanted to put Jeffries back in with Johnson within a year,arguing the rounds he had under his belt would have improved his subsequent performance.Jeffries, very sensibly told him to **** off!
A great champion who is shot, will often still have enough left to beat a decent contender, who ends up as a footnote.

We have to toy with the idea, that Jeffries might still have had that in him.
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Old 06-06-2014, 06:12 PM   #39
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Default Re: Boxing news article about james j jeffries.

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A great champion who is shot, will often still have enough left to beat a decent contender, who ends up as a footnote.

We have to toy with the idea, that Jeffries might still have had that in him.
I dont think he had anything left except his courage.If I was Mendoza, I would say he was still a force ,because that would build up Johnson, the way Mendoza pretends Jackson was still a world class fighter when Jeffries massacred him. But the truth is he was gone ,as Fitz was when Johnson stopped him.
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Old 06-06-2014, 06:41 PM   #40
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Default Re: Boxing news article about james j jeffries.

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I dont think he had anything left except his courage.If I was Mendoza, I would say he was still a force ,because that would build up Johnson, the way Mendoza pretends Jackson was still a world class fighter when Jeffries massacred him. But the truth is he was gone ,as Fitz was when Johnson stopped him.
Was he a Dempsey or old Foreman case, or was he a Peter Jackson case?

I think the question is up in the air!
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Old 06-06-2014, 06:45 PM   #41
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Default Re: Boxing news article about james j jeffries.

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So how much did Jeffries have left for the Johnson fight?

The bottom line is that we don’t know, because it was literaly the only fight of his comeback, and it was against an all time great in his prime. When you loose to an all time great past your prime, there is always the question of whether it was because you were shot, or they were simply that good. Yes we can reasonably infer that he must have gone back, but we cannot quantify by how much.

In the case of the Ali of the Holmes fight for example, we have the Berbick fight as a yardstick to measure it against. In the case of the Dempsey Tunney fights, we have the Sharkey fight as a yardstick, and so forth. If Jeffries had taken a tune up, or been tempted back into the ring for one last payday agaisnt Luther MCCarthy, we would have a much better idea!
We can say he was without question a shell of the man he was in his prime .. the reasons are obvious. Debating them diminishes your own seriousness on the matter.
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Old 06-06-2014, 07:03 PM   #42
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Default Re: Boxing news article about james j jeffries.

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We can say he was without question a shell of the man he was in his prime .. the reasons are obvious. Debating them diminishes your own seriousness on the matter.
Accepting any idea/concept without questioning it, diminishes your seriousness!

For gods sake, we are here to test ideas about boxing history!
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Old 06-06-2014, 08:34 PM   #43
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Default Re: Boxing news article about james j jeffries.

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Firpo was crude but hit hard enough to drop anyone.

Dempsey went into hospital after that fight to have an operation to have an anal fissure repaired ,a direct result of that fight. He reacted instinctively when he was under pressure,punch,punch, punch ,and keep on punching !
S ,you are slipping first Patterson misdiagnosed , now Dempsey.
Maybe you need to lay off the firewater?
I'm pretty sure I hit hard enough to drop anyone given the opportunity… but I don't have the skill to do it against world class heavies. And off the top of my head, I can't name a less skilled heavy I have seen on film than Firpo… And Dempsey is a close second if just given the footage of him coming out for that fight. He was atrocious.

No, I have diagnosed correctly this Mr. Dempsey. All Hat, No Cattle.
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Old 06-06-2014, 09:26 PM   #44
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Default Re: Boxing news article about james j jeffries.

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Accepting any idea/concept without questioning it, diminishes your seriousness!

For gods sake, we are here to test ideas about boxing history!
Yes but not regurgitate the obvious ..
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Old 06-06-2014, 09:27 PM   #45
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Default Re: Boxing news article about james j jeffries.

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Firpo was crude but hit hard enough to drop anyone.

Dempsey went into hospital after that fight to have an operation to have an anal fissure repaired ,a direct result of that fight. He reacted instinctively when he was under pressure,punch,punch, punch ,and keep on punching !
S ,you are slipping first Patterson misdiagnosed , now Dempsey.
Maybe you need to lay off the firewater?
Where did you read that ? I've heard time and again he hurt himself but thats pretty specific ..
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