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Old 07-11-2007, 08:17 PM   #1
Street Lethal
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Default Moore's strategy in the Marciano fight

Moore is either circling to his left on purpose or allowing Marciano to maneuver him to the path of Marciano's right hand. It seems like Archie is either trying to avoid the left hook or pull Marciano into his own right hand or both. Moore does catch Marciano with the right and Marciano misses lots of left hooks, but Moore is right in the path of Marciano's money punch. Why didn't Moore circle to Marciano's left? He could have stayed out of Marciano's range and then use his educated left to keep Marciano off balance. Rocky would have had to lunge and Moore could have caught him coming in (which he did a lot, but he could have done it even more). I think Moore made a big mistake here.

Moore slugs with Marciano when hurt. Why didn't Moore clinch more? Did he want to draw Marciano into a slugging match? He was hitting Marciano often, but Marciano could take those shots and his youth and stamina allowed him to keep going whereas Moore would fade. Archie's instincts were good in the exchanges, but his reflexes were slow. He seemed to be mistiming Rocky's rhythm and as a result he was getting clocked. This was another of Moore's big mistake.

Maybe this has already been discussed here, but do people think that had Moore circled to Marciano's left and had tied Rocky up more that he could have outpointed Marciano? I think he would have lasted longer in the fight, but I am not sure I think he could have one. What do you think?
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Old 07-12-2007, 12:20 AM   #2
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Default Re: Moore's strategy in the Marciano fight

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Originally Posted by Street Lethal
I think he would have lasted longer in the fight, but I am not sure I think he could have one. What do you think?
Whoops. I meant to write "not sure he could have WON."

Does anybody have an opinion on this? Archie Moore is one of my favorite boxers ever and it would have been great if he had been the one to hand Marciano his first or only defeat. I don't know if he could have, but I think he would have given himself more of a chance had he fought the fight differently.

If it's a boring question that's cool.
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Old 07-12-2007, 04:27 AM   #3
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Default Re: Moore's strategy in the Marciano fight

Well you get a glimpse of what Moore has to offer in the 2nd, Rocky throws a big right and Moore counters with the uppercut.

I think that Moore knew he couldn't win a long fight - he claims to be 42 for this one (he was probably slightly younger) and he was in with maybe the fittest big man ever - so he needed action and early. Marciano looks a little bit tentative in 1 which would have made Moore even more anxious to get things rolling.

I scored the first 3 rounds to Moore, so in my opinion his stratagy was a good one. It may have been that a younger Moore could have sustained this pace, though it seems unlikely.
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Old 07-12-2007, 08:55 AM   #4
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Default Re: Moore's strategy in the Marciano fight

moore could never beat rocky
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Old 07-12-2007, 10:25 AM   #5
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Default Re: Moore's strategy in the Marciano fight

I was watching Moore- Durelle I last night and noticed the kind of funny looking punch that dropped Marciano is the same punch that started Durelle's demise in the 11th.

I agree that Marciano loked tentative in the beginning. Perhaps he was trying to outboxing Moore. Looks like in the 4th he decided to started winging punches til he hit something.
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Old 07-12-2007, 11:13 AM   #6
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Default Re: Moore's strategy in the Marciano fight

Each time we see Moore on the deck after a knockdown, his torso is heaving with exertion. Those knockdowns weren't taking place because Rocky was beating Archie senseless, they were attrition knockdowns. (If the Ali of the Foreman match tried rope-a-doping with Rocky, he would have gotten killed!) As many punches as Marciano missed with Moore pinned on the ropes, there was simply no way Archie would get Rocky to wear himself out. His best chance came when he floored Marciano with the hardest scoring punch of his career (and, believe it or hot, very possibly the hardest single scoring punch ever landed in a Marciano fight, if as Tiger Ted Lowry stated, Moore, and not Marciano, was the hardest puncher he ever fought). Archie's punch of a career only resulted in a momentary touch to the deck. (Nobody ever knocked Rocky on his back.)

Moore claimed that Harry Kessler's illegal standing eight count of Marciano after he stood back up cost Archie his chance to win the title, but I don't buy it. Walcott was punching the shit out of Rocky, but couldn't land him again after flooring Marciano with his first round hook. Jersey Joe tried mightily to blast the Rock out early, and failed. No, there was no possibilty of Archie Moore defeating Marciano in that match.

When the Mongoose graduated to that ring in the sky, three clips from his career were shown on news and sportscasts. The first was his KD of Marciano (which surprised an awful lot of folks who were somehow under the impression that Rocky had never been decked). The other two clips were of Yvon Durelle flooring Archie (with what Moore said was the hardest punch he was ever hit by), and the Mongoose coming back to flatten Durelle for the count. Not a bad way for a boxing career to be encapsulated in memoriam. That he dropped the mighty and invincible Brockton Blockbuster down to his knees for just an instant is good enough for me.
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Old 07-12-2007, 11:38 AM   #7
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Default Re: Moore's strategy in the Marciano fight

Thanks for the Ted Lowry statement. I said in another thread that I thought Moore looked like the harder puncher of the two. Marciano, although quickly up was still hurt for a little while. Never looked hurt after that that, however.

Moore's contention the ref cost him the fight is ridiculous. The count went to four, the ref barely wiped his gloves (didn't yank them to revive Rocky like I think Moore said) and the fight continued.

Marciano's flurry after he knocked moore down in the 6th was crazy.
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Old 07-12-2007, 11:50 AM   #8
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Default Re: Moore's strategy in the Marciano fight

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Originally Posted by hdog
Thanks for the Ted Lowry statement. I said in another thread that I thought Moore looked like the harder puncher of the two. Marciano, although quickly up was still hurt for a little while. Never looked hurt after that that, however.

Moore's contention the ref cost him the fight is ridiculous. The count went to four, the ref barely wiped his gloves (didn't yank them to revive Rocky like I think Moore said) and the fight continued.

Marciano's flurry after he knocked moore down in the 6th was crazy.
Archie's comments about Rocky immediately after their war was telling. "He is the strongest man I have ever boxed. I don't know that he's the hardest hitter, but he certainly hits hard enough." Marciano was the one with hands of stone before "Rocky" Duran came along to dethrone Buchanan. But as hard as Marciano could punch, his imperviousness exceeded his force. (Marciano vs Marciano would have gone the 15 round distance. He was that tough!)
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Old 07-12-2007, 12:57 PM   #9
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Default Re: Moore's strategy in the Marciano fight

Did Marciano look a little distressed in his corner after the 2nd round to you? Kept trying to wipe his gloves on Columbo or something. Maybe I'm making a bigger deal about it than there was but it looked like something was bothering him.
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Old 07-12-2007, 01:10 PM   #10
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Default Re: Moore's strategy in the Marciano fight

I own a vintage, pocket sixed "Sports" magazine that came out in early 1955 -in it, Archie Moore reveals how he is going to dethrone Marciano. He is adamant about it and relies on geometry and some arcane stuff. I am sure that he applied these principles as best he could, but let's remember that Archie was an inventive verbalist who delighted in confusing people.

After the loss, Moore was asked what had happened to his grand strategy. He replied something to the effect of "Marciano's right hand".
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Old 07-12-2007, 04:39 PM   #11
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Default Re: Moore's strategy in the Marciano fight

The ref did give Marciano too much time to recover under the rules of the day. As soon as Rocky stood up, the rules at the time state that the ref should have wiped Marciano's gloves off and wave the two back into combat. The referee is still counting even after Rocky is upright.

I don't see the right hand that drops him as an uppercut. It looks like a straight right hand counter. But that's just a small thing.

Moore is winded after the first round. It wasn't his best night.

But what I am asking about is strategy. Did Moore use the right strategy? I don't think he did.
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Old 07-12-2007, 05:46 PM   #12
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Default Re: Moore's strategy in the Marciano fight

Quote:
Originally Posted by djb2009
moore could never beat rocky
Given that Moore gave Rocky a fight at that late stage of his career, this is a pretty rash statement, though I'd conceed you could be right.
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Old 07-12-2007, 05:49 PM   #13
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Default Re: Moore's strategy in the Marciano fight

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Originally Posted by hdog
I agree that Marciano loked tentative in the beginning. Perhaps he was trying to outboxing Moore. Looks like in the 4th he decided to started winging punches til he hit something.
I think you are spot on.

I beleive Marciano was nervous about taking on Moore - a clever, clever boxer. Of course, Marciano wasn't a dummy, but let's agree that though he was a good ring general, he also suffered from the "one thing done very well" disease.

I think he was looking for Moore to tire and was disturbed by how Moore performed in the first 3 rounds.
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Old 07-12-2007, 05:51 PM   #14
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Default Re: Moore's strategy in the Marciano fight

Quote:
Originally Posted by Stonehands89
I own a vintage, pocket sixed "Sports" magazine that came out in early 1955 -in it, Archie Moore reveals how he is going to dethrone Marciano. He is adamant about it and relies on geometry and some arcane stuff. I am sure that he applied these principles as best he could, but let's remember that Archie was an inventive verbalist who delighted in confusing people.
This is the pertenant point - if Moore had eff all in the way of a plan, he would still nod and wink.
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Old 07-12-2007, 05:56 PM   #15
john garfield
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Default Re: Moore's strategy in the Marciano fight

Quote:
Originally Posted by Street Lethal
The ref did give Marciano too much time to recover under the rules of the day. As soon as Rocky stood up, the rules at the time state that the ref should have wiped Marciano's gloves off and wave the two back into combat. The referee is still counting even after Rocky is upright.

I don't see the right hand that drops him as an uppercut. It looks like a straight right hand counter. But that's just a small thing.

Moore is winded after the first round. It wasn't his best night.

But what I am asking about is strategy. Did Moore use the right strategy? I don't think he did.
I see your reasoning, SL, but there's and old expression: 'It's hard to remember that your primary goal was to drain the swamp, when you're hip deep in alligators'
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