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Old 03-14-2008, 04:33 AM   #31
RoccoMarciano
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Default Re: Religious folks: Ever wonder why you tend to be less intelligent and less educate

Quote:
Originally Posted by fists of fury
What is this sudden explosion of religious talk anyway? The lounge is plastered wall to wall with this stuff.

Believe what you want and move on. Crikey.
It moved into a non-religious realm... my only reason for discussing the matter.

In my own view, a quick burial outside the classic forum is appropriate
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Old 03-14-2008, 06:08 AM   #32
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Default Re: Religious folks: Ever wonder why you tend to be less intelligent and less educate

Quote:
Originally Posted by fists of fury
Well I tell ya, faith never hurt.

Look at Evander and Foreman. Marciano and Louis. Ali too. Miracle workers.
Doing a naked dance every time you get out of bed never hurts either. Doesn't mean it creates miracles from an Invisible Man, though.


You gotta credit Holyfield for loyalty though. Every time he got his ass kicked, he still thanked God. He also seems to be losing more as he gets older; perhaps his latest opponents have been better at praying than he is, or his praying skills are not what they used to be. Or God doesn't like older men and decided to grant Byrd, Donald, Toney etc victories.

One thing baffled me, though. Ibragimov is a Muslim. Why did the Christian God let him win while Sultan was praying to Allah?!

Come to think of it, God gave Holyfield a rough deal during his entire career. God promised a 3rd round knockout against Lewis, who never thanks him, but instead he was on the end of a one-sided beating.
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Old 03-14-2008, 07:04 AM   #33
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Default Re: Religious folks: Ever wonder why you tend to be less intelligent and less educated?

Quote:
Originally Posted by Snorlax
There's plenty of atheists in foxholes. What god could allow the horror of war?
A man went to a barbershop to have his hair cut and his beard trimmed.
As the barber began to work, they began to have a good conversation.
They talked about many things and various subjects.
When they eventually touched on the subject of God, the barber said:
'I don't believe that God exists.'

'Why do you say that?' asked the customer. 'Well, you just have to go out in the street to realize that God doesn't exist.
Tell me, if God exists, would there be so many sick people?
Would there be abandoned children? If God existed, there would be neither suffering nor pain. I can't imagine a loving God who would allow all of these things.' The customer thought for a moment, but didn't respond.

The barber finished his job and the customer left the shop.

Just after he left the barbershop, he saw a man in the street with long, stringy, dirty hair and an untrimmed beard.
He looked dirty and unkempt. The customer turned back and entered the barber shop again and he said to the barber:

'You know what? Barbers do not exist.'

'How can you say that?' asked the surprised barber.

'I am here, and I am a barber. And I just worked on you!'
'No!' the customer exclaimed. 'Barbers don't exist because
if they did, there would be no people with dirty long hair and untrimmed beards, like that man outside.'

'Ah, but barbers DO exist! That's what happens when people do not come to me.'

-------------------------------------------

....this is a little exercise that can help us think about answers to the big questions. There are many others answers (and some are harder to overcome than this) but I'm not sure the ESB Classic section is the proper place for presenting in-depth theological arguments.





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Old 03-14-2008, 07:07 AM   #34
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Default Re: Religious folks: Ever wonder why you tend to be less intelligent and less educated?

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Originally Posted by Stonehands89
It is said that there are no atheists in foxholes.
Anyone who says that deserves to be shot by a firing squad made up of the thousands upon thousands of atheists who have died in war. In fact, I'd be morally obliged beat up anyone who said something like that.
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Old 03-14-2008, 07:14 AM   #35
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Default Re: Religious folks: Ever wonder why you tend to be less intelligent and less educate

Quote:
Originally Posted by ChrisPontius
Doing a naked dance every time you get out of bed never hurts either. Doesn't mean it creates miracles from an Invisible Man, though.
Even if you take away the question of God's existence or the validity of Christianity, you still a good result from faith and praying that you don't get from a naked dance. A man who believes with all his heart that God watches over him and will give him victory is a man to be reckoned with. This is what makes Islamic terrorists so dangerous.

Quote:
Originally Posted by ChrisPontius
You gotta credit Holyfield for loyalty though. Every time he got his ass kicked, he still thanked God. He also seems to be losing more as he gets older; perhaps his latest opponents have been better at praying than he is, or his praying skills are not what they used to be. Or God doesn't like older men and decided to grant Byrd, Donald, Toney etc victories.

One thing baffled me, though. Ibragimov is a Muslim. Why did the Christian God let him win while Sultan was praying to Allah?!

Come to think of it, God gave Holyfield a rough deal during his entire career. God promised a 3rd round knockout against Lewis, who never thanks him, but instead he was on the end of a one-sided beating.
Scripture says clearly: "you shall not put the Lord your God to the test." I was watching that too and shook my head. Evander got a little presumptuous with that prediction. It is a bold claim to say "God told me..." It may even be arrogance most of the time. God demands humility (The psalmist asks: "why are dust and ashes proud? What is man that You are mindful of him?").

Holyfield's losing to a Muslim is neither affirmative nor a denial of God's presence in his life ("My ways are not your ways... the Lord works in mysterious ways, etc..."). Consider the death of Christ. Crucifixion was about as bad as it gets and it looked like all hope was nailed to a cross. But then what? Everyone has the freedom to answer that for themselves.
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Old 03-14-2008, 07:33 AM   #36
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Default Re: Religious folks: Ever wonder why you tend to be less intelligent and less educated?

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Originally Posted by Slothrop
Just wondering.
And the boxing content is?
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Old 03-14-2008, 07:35 AM   #37
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Default Re: Religious folks: Ever wonder why you tend to be less intelligent and less educated?

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Originally Posted by mcvey
And the boxing content is?
Sorry my obtuse brain has only just registered ,you are referring to the guys that after each victory ,interrupt the commentator to give thanks to the "Lord ,My Saviour",I'll add another query,ever wonder why they are invariably Black?
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Old 03-14-2008, 08:11 AM   #38
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Default Re: Religious folks: Ever wonder why you tend to be less intelligent and less educate

Quote:
Originally Posted by Stonehands89
A man went to a barbershop to have his hair cut and his beard trimmed.
As the barber began to work, they began to have a good conversation.
They talked about many things and various subjects.
When they eventually touched on the subject of God, the barber said:
'I don't believe that God exists.'

'Why do you say that?' asked the customer. 'Well, you just have to go out in the street to realize that God doesn't exist.
Tell me, if God exists, would there be so many sick people?
Would there be abandoned children? If God existed, there would be neither suffering nor pain. I can't imagine a loving God who would allow all of these things.' The customer thought for a moment, but didn't respond.

The barber finished his job and the customer left the shop.

Just after he left the barbershop, he saw a man in the street with long, stringy, dirty hair and an untrimmed beard.
He looked dirty and unkempt. The customer turned back and entered the barber shop again and he said to the barber:

'You know what? Barbers do not exist.'

'How can you say that?' asked the surprised barber.

'I am here, and I am a barber. And I just worked on you!'
'No!' the customer exclaimed. 'Barbers don't exist because
if they did, there would be no people with dirty long hair and untrimmed beards, like that man outside.'

'Ah, but barbers DO exist! That's what happens when people do not come to me.'

-------------------------------------------

....this is a little exercise that can help us think about answers to the big questions. There are many others answers (and some are harder to overcome than this) but I'm not sure the ESB Classic section is the proper place for presenting in-depth theological arguments.






Well, when a long, dirty haired man goes to a barber and believes he exists, he walks out with a nice looking haircut.


When a person is born with a face like this:


[Only registered and activated users can see links. ]


And he turns to his savior Jesus Christ, he still looks like this:


[Only registered and activated users can see links. ]



When an eleven year old Chinese boy has to work from 8 in the morning to 8 the evening in a factory, seven days a week, but he turns to God, he still has the most one of the miserable lifes on the planet. Why did God give him such an absolute shitty life while i get to have luxery's of all kinds?

I'm sure you can find a bible to fit this situation (God works in mysterious ways or whatever), just like there's one for every situation, but it just doesn't make sense to me.


A dude walking on water, turning water into wine, splitting the ocean and a ship that carried all of the earth's species? Come on man, those stories were entertaining when i was 8 years old, after that i realised that they are just as likely as dragons to exist.
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Old 03-14-2008, 08:14 AM   #39
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Default Re: Religious folks: Ever wonder why you tend to be less intelligent and less educate

Quote:
Originally Posted by Stonehands89
Even if you take away the question of God's existence or the validity of Christianity, you still a good result from faith and praying that you don't get from a naked dance.
Well, a research was done with over hundreds of medical cases, and there was no correlation found between those prayed for and better recovery. A lot of how the body works is unknown to us; when you're sick and you get better, you don't consciously do it. If you pray, or do a naked dance, and are healed two days later, you can say you have found God..... or it was just gonna happen whatever you did.


Quote:
Originally Posted by Steonhands89
A man who believes with all his heart that God watches over him and will give him victory is a man to be reckoned with. This is what makes Islamic terrorists so dangerous.
What makes Islamic terrorists dangerous is the thought that when they kill innocent people, they will get 67 virgins who remain virgins after you **** them. Not the fact that "God watches over them in victory". It's self believe and nothing more.
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Old 03-14-2008, 08:43 AM   #40
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Default Re: Religious folks: Ever wonder why you tend to be less intelligent and less educate

Quote:
Originally Posted by ChrisPontius
A lot of how the body works is unknown to us
Exactly. All these brilliant scientists and doctors don't even know how the human body functions, in it's entirety. And yet there they are, claiming to hold the keys to the knowledge of the universe by dismissing the concept of a higher force. Laughable.

"A dude walking on water, turning water into wine, splitting the ocean and a ship that carried all of the earth's species? Come on man, those stories were entertaining when i was 8 years old, after that i realised that they are just as likely as dragons to exist."

Taken literally, it's absurd yes. But most literal interpretations of what was written (especially in the Old Testament) should be dismissed. I have no doubt though that the essence of the stories are true.
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Old 03-14-2008, 09:00 AM   #41
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Default Re: Religious folks: Ever wonder why you tend to be less intelligent and less educate

Quote:
Originally Posted by fists of fury
Exactly. All these brilliant scientists and doctors don't even know how the human body functions, in it's entirety. And yet there they are, claiming to hold the keys to the knowledge of the universe by dismissing the concept of a higher force. Laughable.

"A dude walking on water, turning water into wine, splitting the ocean and a ship that carried all of the earth's species? Come on man, those stories were entertaining when i was 8 years old, after that i realised that they are just as likely as dragons to exist."

Taken literally, it's absurd yes. But most literal interpretations of what was written (especially in the Old Testament) should be dismissed. I have no doubt though that the essence of the stories are true.
To the church's credit, interpretation of scripture has been traditionally metaphorical, eg. the gospel of John's beginning and its relation to the Garden of Eden and vice versa. Creationism is a very recent "Christian" approach and is hardly representative of traditional Christianity; it's a bit like Mormonism in that respect.

Also, I think the best objections to a "higher force" are philosophical, not scientific. Of course, even if one accepts a "higher force", that is no grounds to be a Christian. One could reject evolution, the big bang and all theories of science, but that would not be a good reason to be a Christian. The assumption that the existence of a higher force would vindicate Christianity is as facile as the assumption that the laws of thermodynamics vindicate reincarnation.
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Old 03-14-2008, 09:24 AM   #42
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Default Re: Religious folks: Ever wonder why you tend to be less intelligent and less educated?

The reason religious people are not very bright is very simple.

Religion is based on Faith. Faith is no more than an unproven preposition that something is true. No facts for this preposition are needed for the 'religious man' to believe it.
The more unbelievable, preposterous or ridiculous the preposition, the more Faith is needed by the believer.
Faith is ofcourse just a euphemism for gullible or easily led.

The interesting Paradox in religion is that is based on selfishness. Churchgoers worship God, ultimately for the self serving reward of heaven, an afterlife, a reward for their own purposes.
Now, hypothetically, if there was a God would he reward the selfish churchgoers or the genuine good people who are good because that is who they are and not because they hope for brownie points and an immortal afterlife??
It is interesting to note the ratio of people who have killed in the name of religion compared to how many have killed in the name of Atheism.

The dumbness of religiousfolk can be quantified in how easy they can be controlled. How they can be sent to kill in the name of some invisible being.
Because they were born with a GODLY amount of Faith [gullibilty]
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Old 03-14-2008, 09:56 AM   #43
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Default Re: Religious folks: Ever wonder why you tend to be less intelligent and less educated?

Quote:
Originally Posted by Slothrop
Just wondering.
The New York Times ran a story several years back suggesting the same thing but after getting thousands of letters, faxes, and e-mails from spiritual theists showing their doctorates, MBA's, etc..etc..they had to print a public apology.

It takes just as much "faith" to believe that everything came from Nothing as to believe that there was a creator/designer/Deity behind existence...

Why are you even posting something like this in a boxing forum.
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Old 03-14-2008, 12:42 PM   #44
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Default Re: Religious folks: Ever wonder why you tend to be less intelligent and less educate

Quote:
Originally Posted by ChrisPontius
Well, when a long, dirty haired man goes to a barber and believes he exists, he walks out with a nice looking haircut.


When a person is born with a face like this:


[Only registered and activated users can see links. ]


And he turns to his savior Jesus Christ, he still looks like this:


[Only registered and activated users can see links. ]
And Jesus loves him anyway -and that is something that this man can hold on to, even if that mirror in his hand would be better left on the table. The belief is that Jesus made that face that people scorn (that his children have the freedom to scorn, just like they have the freedom to look deeper than what they see). What does a man's face have to do with his capacity to love or to be loved?


Quote:
Originally Posted by ChrisPontius
When an eleven year old Chinese boy has to work from 8 in the morning to 8 the evening in a factory, seven days a week, but he turns to God, he still has the most one of the miserable lifes on the planet. Why did God give him such an absolute shitty life while i get to have luxery's of all kinds?

I'm sure you can find a bible to fit this situation (God works in mysterious ways or whatever), just like there's one for every situation, but it just doesn't make sense to me.


A dude walking on water, turning water into wine, splitting the ocean and a ship that carried all of the earth's species? Come on man, those stories were entertaining when i was 8 years old, after that i realised that they are just as likely as dragons to exist.
No bible necessary, my friend. Religious folk often make the mistake of bringing in the bible to debates with secularists. Let me see if I can retort in a different way...

A man reaches the top of the world of business. He's rich, has a beautiful wife, kids, and all of your luxuries times 10. One morning he takes out a gun and shoots himself in the head.

A slave woman has no material goods, scars on her back, children who are condemned to be slaves for the rest of their existence to chains, and a husband who has been sold to Georgia because the price was write. She works in a cotton field from "sun up to sundown". And sings spiritual songs all day. She's happy and thanks Jesus for what little she does have.

I suspect that those who have little or nothing are more inclined to rely on their spirituality or religion. It brings hope and consolation. Perhaps poverty and suffering offer perspective and truth. Perhaps it is the man who relies on his wealth or education for happiness is self-delusional.
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Old 03-14-2008, 01:45 PM   #45
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Default Re: Religious folks: Ever wonder why you tend to be less intelligent and less educate

Quote:
Originally Posted by The Kurgan
To the church's credit, interpretation of scripture has been traditionally metaphorical, eg. the gospel of John's beginning and its relation to the Garden of Eden and vice versa. Creationism is a very recent "Christian" approach and is hardly representative of traditional Christianity; it's a bit like Mormonism in that respect.

Also, I think the best objections to a "higher force" are philosophical, not scientific. Of course, even if one accepts a "higher force", that is no grounds to be a Christian. One could reject evolution, the big bang and all theories of science, but that would not be a good reason to be a Christian. The assumption that the existence of a higher force would vindicate Christianity is as facile as the assumption that the laws of thermodynamics vindicate reincarnation.
Excellent.
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