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Old 07-12-2007, 07:34 PM   #1
McGrain
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Default Was Ali A Fighting Machine?

In the same way as Dempsey, Marciano or Louis was a fighting machine?
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Old 07-12-2007, 07:41 PM   #2
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Default Re: Was Ali A Fighting Machine?

Define "fighting machine".
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Old 07-12-2007, 08:08 PM   #3
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Default Re: Was Ali A Fighting Machine?

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Originally Posted by Maxmomer
Define "fighting machine".
Agreed.
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Old 07-12-2007, 08:11 PM   #4
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Default Re: Was Ali A Fighting Machine?

Quote:
Originally Posted by Maxmomer
Define "fighting machine".

Well I have partially defined it via the other fighters mentioned in the original post.

Perhaps if you have to ask your answer is by default, "no". I don't think you'd ask that question if the thread was "Is Dempsey a Fighting Machine?"

But as far as it goes, feel free to define it yourself - and why Ali does or doesn't fit your description.
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Old 07-12-2007, 09:19 PM   #5
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Default Re: Was Ali A Fighting Machine?

No I think that phraze describes Joe Louis, Ali was more of a razzle/dazzle guy a showman
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Old 07-12-2007, 09:33 PM   #6
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Default Re: Was Ali A Fighting Machine?

I think he was in the sense that he loved fighting, it wasn't a profession like it was for Holmes, it was his true calling...

Ali couldn't imagine doing anything else, and he couldn't stop fighting even when it was obvious to an outsider he should stop.

In terms of being built to fight and machine-like in performance? Also a 'yes' for me, although I understand why others may say 'no.'

Clearly I appreciate he was different in style and attitude to a Marciano, who broke his opponents down through attrition and pure toughness. Ali rarely tried to hurt his opponents, and there are a number of occasions where he deliberately went easy at the moment of truth...
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Old 07-12-2007, 11:06 PM   #7
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Default Re: Was Ali A Fighting Machine?

Quote:
Originally Posted by NickHudson
I think he was in the sense that he loved fighting, it wasn't a profession like it was for Holmes, it was his true calling...

Ali couldn't imagine doing anything else, and he couldn't stop fighting even when it was obvious to an outsider he should stop.

In terms of being built to fight and machine-like in performance? Also a 'yes' for me, although I understand why others may say 'no.'

Clearly I appreciate he was different in style and attitude to a Marciano, who broke his opponents down through attrition and pure toughness. Ali rarely tried to hurt his opponents, and there are a number of occasions where he deliberately went easy at the moment of truth...
You hit the nail on the head, NickHudson.
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Old 07-13-2007, 07:27 AM   #8
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Default Re: Was Ali A Fighting Machine?

Good post Nick. Ali wanted to outclass his opponents in the ring not to just destroy them like 99% of boxers aim to do. Ali would ease of and tell the ref to stop the fight. Tyson, Louis, Marciano, etc wouldn't do anything of the sort. They would continue to hit the guy as he's going down. Ali coulda done that against Foreman but decided not to. He kept his hands low and just moved his head outta the way. People thought he was crazy. That was entertainment for Ali. To see those people with mouths open and shocked to see such risky moves but they didn't always work but he thought it was worth the gamble and most of the time it worked. He loved to shock and entertain people. Ali was an entertaining fighting machine.
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Old 07-13-2007, 01:08 PM   #9
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Default Re: Was Ali A Fighting Machine?

ferdie pacheco has always maintained that ali was the most physically perfect hw of all times....his shape, natural balance and grace were spot on for the division, his reflexes and speed were well above average and even his face lacked any 'sharp edges' to be cut....a perfect physical fighting machine.....the actual way ferdie describes it is that if scientists were to create the perfect hw...it would have looked like ali...
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Old 07-13-2007, 04:20 PM   #10
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Default Re: Was Ali A Fighting Machine?

Quote:
Originally Posted by NickHudson
I think he was in the sense that he loved fighting, it wasn't a profession like it was for Holmes, it was his true calling...
Agreed.

Quote:
Ali couldn't imagine doing anything else, and he couldn't stop fighting even when it was obvious to an outsider he should stop.
He missed the bright lights alright! I remember seeing an interview with Ali, and they asked him that question, "what would you do if yo weren't a fighter?" and he really didn't have an answer. Just surprised silence.

Quote:
In terms of being built to fight and machine-like in performance? Also a 'yes' for me, although I understand why others may say 'no.'
Possibly more than any other heavyweight, though he was not a machine for hitting like Louis or Marciano.

Quote:
Clearly I appreciate he was different in style and attitude to a Marciano, who broke his opponents down through attrition and pure toughness.
I don't know about this. Although there are serious flashes against, say Frazier, do you really think it's anything other than attrition and pure toughness in The Rumble In The Jungle, or Manilla? I think to much is made of Ali's amazing plan in the Congo and not nearly enough of his guts and toughs. The man pissed blood for a week.


Quote:
Ali rarely tried to hurt his opponents, and there are a number of occasions where he deliberately went easy at the moment of truth...
There are also a number of occasions where he set out to make his man miserable - Patterson and Terrel spring to mind. Pretty hellish and more sinister than anything Rocky ever did.

To answer my own question I think Ali was a fighting machine - and I think it was in the same way as the Rocky, Joe and Jack.
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Old 07-13-2007, 09:36 PM   #11
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Default Re: Was Ali A Fighting Machine?

[quote=McGrain]Agreed.


What I meant was it wasnt a career style to merely 'out-attrition' his opponents, although i concede when the hammer was down, and he was off his game, he was exceptionally tough.


(I don't know about this. Although there are serious flashes against, say Frazier, do you really think it's anything other than attrition and pure toughness in The Rumble In The Jungle, or Manilla? I think to much is made of Ali's amazing plan in the Congo and not nearly enough of his guts and toughs. The man pissed blood for a week).


Again, I agree with the examples you have given 'a small boy pulling the wings off a butterfly and all that' but it wasnt typical of his career. The Patterson, Terrell and Frazier performance came down to his wacky religious beliefs getting the better of him on specific occasions. As a general trend though, it would be fair to say that as an ATG HW he didnt try and hurt his opponents as much as his peers.

(There are also a number of occasions where he set out to make his man miserable - Patterson and Terrel spring to mind. Pretty hellish and more sinister than anything Rocky ever did).
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