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Old 03-18-2008, 03:14 PM   #16
PH|LLA
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Default Re: the shift from unlimited rounds to a fixed amount of rounds.

so there was no specific event like the death of someone for example?
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Old 03-18-2008, 03:23 PM   #17
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Default Re: the shift from unlimited rounds to a fixed amount of rounds.

Senya, please --salute Duo, admit defeat, and walk away without turning around.

Duo just offered a world-class essay that I am going to print, copy, and hand-out on street corners.

Bravo! ESB needs a new category called "The Best of the Best Posts" and I nominate this one to be the first submission.
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Old 03-18-2008, 03:28 PM   #18
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Default Re: the shift from unlimited rounds to a fixed amount of rounds.

The 15 round distance gradually came to be established as the legitimate championship distance through the extended process of natural selection and evolution as evidenced by the documented chronicles of early Queensbury history. Title matches had been scheduled for distances from ten rounds (Dempsey/Tunney I & II, Ceferino Garcia/Henry Armstrong II, Willard/Moran, Walker/Latzo II), 12 rounds (Dempsey/Willard, Walker/Latzo I, Leonard/Tendler I) 15 rounds (Armstrong/Garcia I, Leonard/Tendler II, Greb/Walker, Dempsey/Gibbons), right on up to 45 rounds. (So far as I can determine without more careful research, only Gans/Nelson I went beyond 40 rounds among championship fights, and anybody who's seen the film knows that would have been stopped in round 15 during subsequent decades.

If 12 rounds had any objective validity for determining superiority, then that distance would have become the established limit over six decades ago. The ten and twelve round distances had a more than fair audition over a period covering a quarter century of competition as the most popular one-on-one sport in the world at the time. Like the 45 round, 25 round and 20 round distances, ten and 12 rounds of boxing ultimately failed to make the cut of acceptance when the bugs were being worked out of the rules during the development of it as the most widely accepted of all individual competitions.

The 12 round distance failed because it was proved to be a perversion of championship boxing's nature. Ditto for distances longer than 15 rounds, which could award toughness and endurance in lieu of skill, effort and strategy. Boxing emerged from WW II in it's ultimate evolved form, an era which saw the full maturity of Pep, Robinson and Louis, who have not been technically surpasses since. The 15 round limit was the ideal showcase of their abilities.

The 12 round limit for a "championship" fight is about as natural as contestants on Fear Factor mouth sucking on goats teats to discover who can spit enough milk into a drinking glass to fill it first.
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Old 03-18-2008, 03:35 PM   #19
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Default Re: the shift from unlimited rounds to a fixed amount of rounds.

Quote:
Originally Posted by Lobotomy
So far as I can determine without more careful research, only Gans/Nelson I went beyond 40 rounds among championship fights
1910-02-22 Frankie Conley W-TKO42 Monte Attell
for the bantamweight title.
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Old 03-18-2008, 04:30 PM   #20
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Default Re: the shift from unlimited rounds to a fixed amount of rounds.

Queensberry Rules matches were originally designed to be over 4 rounds. With the death of LPR it was felt that if Queensberry Rules were to take over then they should be fights to a finish for Championship match ups. This has changed over the years to a maximum of 45, 25, 20, 15 and now sadly 12 rounds.

I think if you look in the Guiness Book of Records there was a 20 rounder (non title) as late as the early 70s...

Also it should be noted 15 rounders were not got rid off for safety (as is spun) but because unlike 12 rounders, 15 rounders do not fit into a TV hour. And although with PPV's that is less of an issue, the rule was changed in the 80s because believe or not (for anyone under 25) you did actually get championship matches on Network/Terrestrial TV!
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Old 03-18-2008, 05:55 PM   #21
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Default Re: the shift from unlimited rounds to a fixed amount of rounds.

Quote:
Originally Posted by Senya13
1910-02-22 Frankie Conley W-TKO42 Monte Attell
for the bantamweight title.
Very good piece of research there. However, Johnny Coulon claimed it after Jimmy Walsh outgrew the division in 1907, won several bouts recorded by history as being for the World's Bantamweight Title, and decisioned Conley over 20 a year after Conley/Attell, which would retroactively seem to disqualify Conley's claim.

Of course Coulon is a legend, the first ex-champion to manage another champion to a world title (and Eddie Perkins joined his mentor in the IBHOF last year). Frankie Conley was a good little fighter, but some old newpaper clippings I read years ago report on Johnny as being the bantamweight titleholder during that era. Anybody with ready access to sportswriting microfilm from that period can help clarify this. (Janitor perhaps?)
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Old 03-18-2008, 05:57 PM   #22
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Default Re: the shift from unlimited rounds to a fixed amount of rounds.

Quote:
Originally Posted by Pharaoh
so there was no specific event like the death of someone for example?
Naw, just a resulting event-the death of boxing as we knew it.
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Old 03-18-2008, 06:05 PM   #23
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Default Re: the shift from unlimited rounds to a fixed amount of rounds.

Conley-Attell is listed by the Ring magazine as a fight for bantam title. Oakland Tribune and Los Angeles Times in next day reports made the same claim (that it was for the title).
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Old 03-18-2008, 09:00 PM   #24
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Default Re: the shift from unlimited rounds to a fixed amount of rounds.

Quote:
Originally Posted by Lobotomy
Naw, just a resulting event-the death of boxing as we knew it.
Either you haven't been paying full attention or you are old enough to justifiably not be paying full attention.
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Old 03-18-2008, 09:04 PM   #25
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Default Re: the shift from unlimited rounds to a fixed amount of rounds.

Quote:
Originally Posted by Pharaoh
so there was no specific event like the death of someone for example?
I was reading today in the new Pollack book about the negiotions for Corbett-Fitzsimmons. In an effort to get the fight recognised as a "boxing match" rather than a "prize fight" in the eyes of the law it was agreed (Against the wishes of Fitzsimmons) that the fight would be over a set limit rather than a fight to the finish.

This may have been incremental.
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Old 03-19-2008, 11:15 AM   #26
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Default Re: the shift from unlimited rounds to a fixed amount of rounds.

Quote:
Originally Posted by The Kurgan
Either you haven't been paying full attention or you are old enough to justifiably not be paying full attention.
Both. I've been forgetting to take my Alzheimer's meds. (I'm sorry....what was the question again?)
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Old 03-19-2008, 11:48 AM   #27
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Default Re: the shift from unlimited rounds to a fixed amount of rounds.

Quote:
Originally Posted by Lobotomy
The 15 round distance gradually came to be established as the legitimate championship distance through the extended process of natural selection and evolution as evidenced by the documented chronicles of early Queensbury history. Title matches had been scheduled for distances from ten rounds (Dempsey/Tunney I & II, Ceferino Garcia/Henry Armstrong II, Willard/Moran, Walker/Latzo II), 12 rounds (Dempsey/Willard, Walker/Latzo I, Leonard/Tendler I) 15 rounds (Armstrong/Garcia I, Leonard/Tendler II, Greb/Walker, Dempsey/Gibbons), right on up to 45 rounds. (So far as I can determine without more careful research, only Gans/Nelson I went beyond 40 rounds among championship fights, and anybody who's seen the film knows that would have been stopped in round 15 during subsequent decades.

If 12 rounds had any objective validity for determining superiority, then that distance would have become the established limit over six decades ago. The ten and twelve round distances had a more than fair audition over a period covering a quarter century of competition as the most popular one-on-one sport in the world at the time. Like the 45 round, 25 round and 20 round distances, ten and 12 rounds of boxing ultimately failed to make the cut of acceptance when the bugs were being worked out of the rules during the development of it as the most widely accepted of all individual competitions.

The 12 round distance failed because it was proved to be a perversion of championship boxing's nature. Ditto for distances longer than 15 rounds, which could award toughness and endurance in lieu of skill, effort and strategy. Boxing emerged from WW II in it's ultimate evolved form, an era which saw the full maturity of Pep, Robinson and Louis, who have not been technically surpasses since. The 15 round limit was the ideal showcase of their abilities.

The 12 round limit for a "championship" fight is about as natural as contestants on Fear Factor mouth sucking on goats teats to discover who can spit enough milk into a drinking glass to fill it first.
Good post Deen.
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Old 03-19-2008, 12:07 PM   #28
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Default Re: the shift from unlimited rounds to a fixed amount of rounds.

Quote:
Originally Posted by Senya13
Conley-Attell is listed by the Ring magazine as a fight for bantam title. Oakland Tribune and Los Angeles Times in next day reports made the same claim (that it was for the title).
My 1957 Ring Record Book has Coulon succeeding Walsh in 1908, by decisioning Kid Murphy in Peoria over ten on 1908-01-08. I'm not disputing what your particular sources report, as I haven't read them myself, simply offering what my own resource is stating. At nearly 900 pages in length, the only mention of of Conley I've been able to find in it so far is his loss to Coulon on Johnny's record. As Conley-Attell took place in Los Angeles, it's perhaps not surprising that the California newspapers reported it as being a title fight. The New York Times of 1912-02-04 reports that it was Coulon defending that title, not Conley, in their brutal 20 round war the previous day. I've found some sources on-line which report that this was for the vacant title, but none so far which identify Conley as the defending champion for this one.
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Old 03-19-2008, 12:30 PM   #29
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Default Re: the shift from unlimited rounds to a fixed amount of rounds.

Quote:
Originally Posted by janitor
I can think of a number of cases where the championship rounds reversed the outcome.
If a fat illconditioned 37 year old Jack Johnson could go 26 rounds in 105 tropical heat todays heavies should be able to do 15,but look at Mcline and Briggs,blowing after 5 never mind 15.
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Old 03-19-2008, 12:43 PM   #30
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Default Re: the shift from unlimited rounds to a fixed amount of rounds.

Quote:
Originally Posted by Duodenum
My 1957 Ring Record Book has Coulon succeeding Walsh in 1908, by decisioning Kid Murphy in Peoria over ten on 1908-01-08.
For whatever it is worth, [Only registered and activated users can see links. ] lists the lineage as such:

[Only registered and activated users can see links. ] (1905-1909)
[Only registered and activated users can see links. ] (1909)
[Only registered and activated users can see links. ] (1909-1911 -- lineage?)
[Only registered and activated users can see links. ](1911-1914)
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