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Old 03-21-2008, 08:23 AM   #1
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Default Joe Calzaghe vs Bernard Hopkins - The Record Comparison

Chris Eubank - Past his best no doubt. Also took this fight at short notice. However, to say that Eubank was shot to pieces or wasn't still a top level operator would be a downright lie. At 31, he was still in decent nick and went on to give Carl Thompson, no mug himself a good go at Crusierweight. Also, Calzaghe himself at this point was still somewhat green having been guided rather dubiously by his first promoter Micky Duff. Calzaghe, however, belied his inexperience at this level by taking it to the British legend and flooring him in the opening round. Despite some hairy moments and having to dig deep in terms of endurance and stamina, Calzaghe passed this test with flying colours, notching up an impressive win against a still very good fighter. This fight took place in 1997.

Robin Reid - Dangerous fighter. A former WBC champion and certainly in his pomp a world class operator. Some bad blood stemming from their amateur days too...Reid fought an excellent fight in this one with JC a little off form to say the least...but still he came through on a bad night with a close but clear decision in the mind of most boxing analysts. Reid would go on to have more success in the future...and in my mind should have got the decision over a certain Sven Ottke when they met in a farcial fight in I think it was 2003. A good win. This fight took place in 1999.

Omar Sheika - Hot up and coming prospect. Calzaghe had looked a bit shit in recent fights on account of chronic hand injuries that led to a lack of sparring...he realised he may be punished if not at his best in this one. Sheika had looked impressive in disposing of most of his competition, though the biggest win on his resume was the result of a contentious decision against Glen Johnson. Nonetheless, even in the context of this comprehensive defeat, he went on to prove to be a decent contender at world level in the SMW division. This was a very good win for Calzaghe and one that gave him some exposure in the US. A good solid win. This fight took place in the year 2000.

Richie Woodhall - A good text book boxer and once again a former WBC champion. Had only lost to world class opposition in Keith Holmes and also Markus Beyer. Had some moments against Calzaghe, but once again JC comprehensively did a number on him with the fight stopped in the 10th. This was the last time Woodhall ever fought. Another good win and another good name on JCs record. This fight took place in the year 2000.

Mario Veit - Undefeated up and comer. A big guy with solid boxing fundamentals, there was high hopes for this German contender. That JC blitzed this guy in one round is one his more underrated wins in my book. The guy has went on to prove what solid fighter he is, particularly a win against the dangerous Jurgen Brahmer a few years back. A good win for JC against another up and coming contender. This fight took place in the year 2000.

Charles Brewer - Former world champion and a dangerous fighter. Tough as nails, but had seen better days. Nonetheless this was a good scrap and again gave Calzaghe some exposure to the US audience. A former world champion almost always looks good on the old record too. A decent win for Calzaghe. This fight took place in the year 2001.

Byron Mitchell - Had just been beaten by Sven Ottke in a slightly contentious decision. A former world champion and very good fighter well capable of mixing it with the best. Calzaghe proved alot in terms of his heart, determination and will to win. Some say the stoppage was premature...POPPY****! Mitchell was getting whacked all over the ring with a series of unanswered shots and went flying back into the ropes seemingly unable to fire back. A very impressive performance and yet another good win. Far more impressive than Das Phantom anyway in disposing of this guy. This fight agaist a top contender and only recently deposed world champ took place in 2003.

Jeff Lacy - A great win. Thats right A GREAT WIN. Calzaghe completly outboxes and humiliates one of Americas great boxing hopes. Prior to this fight people were touting Lacy for the following fights after this one: Taylor at 168 and Tarver at 175. OHHHH the Lacy Amnesia: This guy was supposed to freaking mow through Taylor(whose stock WAS high having just beaten in the minds of most objective followers of the sport long term middlweight champion Bernard Hopkins) and after that contest with the recently appointed LHW king Tarver for 175 supremacy. Those plans were laid to waste when Lacy who had destroyed a series of perenial contenders such as Pemberton, Reid and Vanderpool in a vein never seen before was humiliated in one of the best performances of this era. A great win over a hot hot prospect and the sort of beating a fighter psychologically and physically never recovers from. This fight took place in 2006.

Sakio Bika - People scoffed when this fight was made. But look a little deeper and you will see that this guy could easily have walked into this WBC champion. Proved to be a wild customer, a master of the dirty tactics to say the least. JC fought his fight and still disposed of this world level contender. A good win. This fight took place in 2006.

Mikkell Kessler - A terrifying monster of a 168lber. This guy had hardly lost a ****ing round in his career and as a JC fan I feared this guy. Unwavering self belief and again disposed of top competition most efficiently and in some instances brutally. Wins over Eric Lucas, Markus Beyer and Anthony Mundine are not to be scoffed at: particularly the comprhensive nature in which he delivered them. Furthermore he showed that he was not afraid of hostile environments in the win against Mundine. That Calzaghe, now a veteran, beat this guy, the 168 heir apparent as soundly and convincingly as he did was quite some achievement in my book. I expect this to appreciate with time also but even in the unlikely event that it doesn't, a great win for JC. This fight took place in 2007.

Now, some may quibble with the achievements of the guys on this list. I won't, I believe this assortment of champions and top contenders would enhance the resume of any serious player in and around the 168 division. Taken together they represent a solid, sound record and the manner in which they were beaten makes it still more impressive. Also
look at the dates: the myth of JC only stepping it up in terms of fighting top contenders is just that a myth: he clearly fought at such a level from the word go.

Now however, the naysayers will still say where were the fights against the true elite on a par with Joe. Now let me address this. Who exactly could Joe have fought that would really have enhanced his legacy?

Sven Ottke - The obvious one. Undefeated IBF and eventually WBA champ during Calzaghes reign. Why did this fight never take place? A number of reasons. The first being that Ottke refused to even acknowledge that he knew who Joe was. Secondly, his refusal to fight outside of the safe haven of Germany where soooo many dodgy decisions were granted in his favour. FFS Reid was warned for hitting him! That this fight didn't take place was in the minds of most boxing analysts Sven Ottke's fault. For christ sake his resume, when all has been said and done is inferior to Joes. He never called out Calzaghe(unlike Joe him) and quite simply sought to avoid even talking about him. Joe cannot be blamed reasonably either for not wanting to travel to Germany. This fight would have added to Calzaghes legacy though that cannot be denied.

Roy Jones Junior - Was at 175 when Calzaghe made his way on to the world scene. Superman Roy however, back in the day before we all got a little nostalgic for him was constantly criticised for fightings shit opposition not on his level(as if anyone was) during his LHW reign. He didn't want to know about Joe...a guy with only a little American exposure...he represented all risk and no reward to this business man.

Dariuz 'Tiger' Can't spell his ****ing name - Very good fighter and lineal at 175. WBO champ also. Why didn't Calzaghe fight this guy? Ill concede here: I really have no idea. As far as I know this fight was never mooted and I can't get why. Both guys suffered in the shadow of the other champion in the division....if Calzaghe stepped up and fought this guy and im sure he would have been willing and won he would have added a huge name to his record and had a basis on which he could fight Jones. This was a missed opportunity in my eyes. Calzaghe could have pushed for this.


Bernard Hopkins - My favourite. Ohhh I really love this one. Yep Bernie fans Hopkins blatantly ducked JC in order to fight Carl Daniels, Morrade Hakkar, Joppy, Allen and then a blown up Welter. Some legend. Why did he do this having agreed to the fight in 2002? On the basis that all great businessmen make decisions: risk versus reward. Who the **** was Calzaghe to the average sports fan in the states? Sure boxing fans knew the guy and his stock was high after a series of good performances in 2000 and 2001 but would the Americans really care that much about a win over him? Did he really want to squander all that hard worked recognition after the Tito win and a few big easy paydays? Did he heck ! He thus doubled his demands just as the contracts were about to be signed and pulled out and fought Daniels that year. This would have been a huge win for JC. The undisputed MW king with recognition and plaudits galore being bestowed on him. Hopkins bottled it what can you do? Now takes the fight as an old man with plenty of ready made excuses.
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Old 03-21-2008, 08:24 AM   #2
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Default Re: Joe Calzaghe vs Bernard Hopkins - The Record Comparison

Sorry guys I had to cut big bits out due to character limits.

Including a section on Beyer an intro and a conclusion.

Hope its detailed enough if there are any blanks ask me.

Im going to do a section on Hopkins later.

Your feedback would be most appreciated.
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Old 03-21-2008, 08:31 AM   #3
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Default Re: Joe Calzaghe vs Bernard Hopkins - The Record Comparison

Also I should add: look at the dates of the fights.

Calzaghe has consistently fought at a high level. Top contenders, former champions from 1997 onwards.

It is a myth that he primarilty took on a bunch of shoddy WBO shitty contenders. A myth.

I also addressed the issue of his fellow elite. They are hardly blameless in the big fights not materializing. Infact, they are more culpable than JC. Especially in the cases of Hopkins and Ottke.
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Old 03-21-2008, 08:33 AM   #4
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Default Re: Joe Calzaghe vs Bernard Hopkins - The Record Comparison

I don't think you have remained particularly objective with this one Beatboxer. I bet you won't put as much effort into your Hopkins installment unless its to make him look bad.
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Old 03-21-2008, 08:38 AM   #5
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Default Re: Joe Calzaghe vs Bernard Hopkins - The Record Comparison

I don't think not fighting DM is a big strike against Calzaghe.
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Old 03-21-2008, 08:43 AM   #6
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Default Re: Joe Calzaghe vs Bernard Hopkins - The Record Comparison

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Originally Posted by GazOC
I don't think not fighting DM is a big strike against Calzaghe.
Why not? It's certainly used as a strike against Jones. Joe did a lot of talking about a move to 175 & that was the most logical option. To be honest I've come to accept this is mainly a Calzaghe fan site & fully expect Beatboxer to predictably go on to tear down Hopkins. He'll also whinge about anyone who doesn't completely agree with his opinion.

I actually felt we came to a conclusion of sorts on this subject the other day but this will no doubt reopen this tired debate. I feel this will all be elementary when a 43 year old man outpoints Joe next month. Joe's career will be discredited by most of the boxing fraternity then.
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Old 03-21-2008, 08:45 AM   #7
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Default Re: Joe Calzaghe vs Bernard Hopkins - The Record Comparison

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Originally Posted by dan-b
I don't think you have remained particularly objective with this one Beatboxer. I bet you won't put as much effort into your Hopkins installment unless its to make him look bad.
My main aim was to demonstrate that Calzaghe HAS fought a good solid level of competition. The only real 'lost' years were 2004 and 2005 and there was he even reasons for that what with the divorce during the Glen Johnson build up and the hand injury that scuppered Lacy in late 2005.

Fights against McIntyre and Pudwill were often sandwiched signficant bouts that added to his resume. Your assertion that he fought nothing but WBO manadtory bums is ridiculous. There was a few, I won't deny that and I do think certain fights might have forced the hands of guys like Hopkins and Jones by balancing out the risk-reward ratio somewhat but Calzaghe has fought a strong level of competiton. Comparable at the very least to Hopkins.

I seek to demonstrate that later. Hopkins will get credit where hes due and he deserves a damn lot of it don't worry about that.
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Old 03-21-2008, 08:48 AM   #8
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Default Re: Joe Calzaghe vs Bernard Hopkins - The Record Comparison

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Originally Posted by dan-b
Why not? It's certainly used as a strike against Jones. Joe did a lot of talking about a move to 175 & that was the most logical option. To be honest I've come to accept this is mainly a Calzaghe fan site & fully expect Beatboxer to predictably go on to tear down Hopkins. He'll also whinge about anyone who doesn't completely agree with his opinion.

I actually felt we came to a conclusion of sorts on this subject the other day but this will no doubt reopen this tired debate. I feel this will all be elementary when a 43 year old man outpoints Joe next month. Joe's career will be discredited by most of the boxing fraternity then.
I agree with you in regards to DM.

This fight to me is totally logical. Both had trouble convincing the 'other' champs in their divisons from fighting them for a variety of reasons. Why not take on each other? A win for each would have been very signficant...could have also increased the pressure of messers Jones and Ottke to step up.
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Old 03-21-2008, 08:56 AM   #9
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Default Re: Joe Calzaghe vs Bernard Hopkins - The Record Comparison

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Originally Posted by Beatboxer
I agree with you in regards to DM.

This fight to me is totally logical. Both had trouble convincing the 'other' champs in their divisons from fighting them for a variety of reasons. Why not take on each other? A win for each would have been very signficant...could have also increased the pressure of messers Jones and Ottke to step up.
This is the thing that annoys me about Joe, I really do think he could have beaten DM & easily knocked out Ottke. I do think a lot of this was to do with ****** but then a man of Joes talent should have walked.

As for the WBO thing. I would never describe a fighter as a bum & I have also never said he fought nothing but WBO mandatories. It is annoying how he often faced fighters after his German counterpart though. Mitchell's WBA belt could have been Joes.
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Old 03-21-2008, 09:03 AM   #10
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Default Re: Joe Calzaghe vs Bernard Hopkins - The Record Comparison

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Originally Posted by dan-b
This is the thing that annoys me about Joe, I really do think he could have beaten DM & easily knocked out Ottke. I do think a lot of this was to do with ****** but then a man of Joes talent should have walked.

As for the WBO thing. I would never describe a fighter as a bum & I have also never said he fought nothing but WBO mandatories. It is annoying how he often faced fighters after his German counterpart though. Mitchell's WBA belt could have been Joes.
The DM case is one that puzzles me. It never seems to have been mooted at all and I can't for the life of me think why. Isn't there some rule that the WBO champ of the division below can automatically move up and get a shot at the champ of the division above? Isn't this what DM did with his brief venture to Cruiser?

None of the two ever seem to have mentioned this fight. It puzzles me...why not? They both have always had a big name in Europe so if the big names in the States weren't willing to play ball why not fight against each other? Baffling.

In regards to the Mitchell case....there does seem to be a lull between Joes last fight in 2002 and his sole fight in 2003. I believe he attributed this to injuries in his book ill have to have a read again. Im too young to fully remember that period as it was happening as I only became a serious fan when I was 15 in 2003 so its not something I remember happening. Ottke fought Mitchell in this lapse and was wholly unconvincing in this victory. Also, Joe was loyal to the WBO belt and I don't think the major sanctioning bodies allowed unfication with it until a certain DLH and Hopkins came together to unfiy at 160. DM was stripped of his titles which Jones subsequently picked up because he refused to drop his WBO strap I know that much. Naz had similar issues.
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Old 03-21-2008, 09:05 AM   #11
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Default Re: Joe Calzaghe vs Bernard Hopkins - The Record Comparison

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Originally Posted by dan-b
Why not? It's certainly used as a strike against Jones. Joe did a lot of talking about a move to 175 & that was the most logical option. To be honest I've come to accept this is mainly a Calzaghe fan site & fully expect Beatboxer to predictably go on to tear down Hopkins. He'll also whinge about anyone who doesn't completely agree with his opinion.

I actually felt we came to a conclusion of sorts on this subject the other day but this will no doubt reopen this tired debate. I feel this will all be elementary when a 43 year old man outpoints Joe next month. Joe's career will be discredited by most of the boxing fraternity then.
The big difference between Jones and Calzaghe was that Jones was fighting at 175 at the same time as DM. I have no problem whatsoever with any boxer (Hopkins included) staying at the weight they are most comfortable at.

I don't think this is a Calzaghe 'fansite' but it is a British forum so I guess you're going to get some bias on the subject. I'm pretty sure Calzaghe will beat Hopkins but he won't get any credit due to Hopkins' age, the week after the fight the general forum will be full of "Calzaghe is ducking Dawson" threads.
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Old 03-21-2008, 09:06 AM   #12
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Default Re: Joe Calzaghe vs Bernard Hopkins - The Record Comparison

Very good thread Beatboxer. I have been waiting for you to post it, I thought you may have forgot.

Anyway Im a non Calzaghe fan and even chose to support Kessler during the last fight but I will be cheering JC on against Hopkins. Who has built a career on boring fights against mostly mediocre opposition. The JC vs Hopkins fights is tough one to call.
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Old 03-21-2008, 09:07 AM   #13
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Default Re: Joe Calzaghe vs Bernard Hopkins - The Record Comparison

Quote:
Originally Posted by Beatboxer
The DM case is one that puzzles me. It never seems to have been mooted at all and I can't for the life of me think why. Isn't there some rule that the WBO champ of the division below can automatically move up and get a shot at the champ of the division above? Isn't this what DM did with his brief venture to Cruiser?

None of the two ever seem to have mentioned this fight. It puzzles me...why not? They both have always had a big name in Europe so if the big names in the States weren't willing to play ball why not fight against each other? Baffling.

In regards to the Mitchell case....there does seem to be a lull between Joes last fight in 2002 and his sole fight in 2003. I believe he attributed this to injuries in his book ill have to have a read again. Im too young to fully remember that period as it was happening as I only became a serious fan when I was 15 in 2003 so its not something I remember happening. Ottke fought Mitchell in this lapse and was wholly unconvincing in this victory. Also, Joe was loyal to the WBO belt and I don't think the major sanctioning bodies allowed unfication with it until a certain DLH and Hopkins came together to unfiy at 160. DM was stripped of his titles which Jones subsequently picked up because he refused to drop his WBO strap I know that much. Naz had similar issues.
Yes there is indeed a rule like that. I think most sanctioning bodies accomodate champions from the lower division stepping up. As for the WBO unification thing. Freitas held WBA/WBO titles simultaneously way before Hopkins did.
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Old 03-21-2008, 09:07 AM   #14
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Default Re: Joe Calzaghe vs Bernard Hopkins - The Record Comparison

Quote:
Originally Posted by Beatboxer
The DM case is one that puzzles me. It never seems to have been mooted at all and I can't for the life of me think why. Isn't there some rule that the WBO champ of the division below can automatically move up and get a shot at the champ of the division above? Isn't this what DM did with his brief venture to Cruiser?
DM wouldn't leave Germany, Calzaghe wouldn't leave the UK. They were both happy enough making money defending on their home turf.
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Old 03-21-2008, 09:10 AM   #15
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Default Re: Joe Calzaghe vs Bernard Hopkins - The Record Comparison

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Originally Posted by dan-b
Yes there is indeed a rule like that. I think most sanctioning bodies accomodate champions from the lower division stepping up. As for the WBO unification thing. Freitas held WBA/WBO titles simultaneously way before Hopkins did.
Ahh yes I believe it was the IBF and WBC that were funny with it. I remember debates on the matter back in 2003 etc on this board.

I must add however, that almost all of the belts, whilst a good way of distinguishing the top fighters and contenders of any given division have their flaws. They are all guilty of nonsensical mandatories that often contradict the other that leads to the division become un-unified even after a fighter works hard to get all the belts.

I don't rate any of the major sanctioning bodies to be higher than the other. They are all guilty of bullshit.
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