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Old 03-22-2008, 08:55 AM   #46
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Default Re: Joe Calzaghe vs Bernard Hopkins - The Record Comparison

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Originally Posted by dan-b
I'll do no such thing should the worst happen unless it really is suddenly apparent Hopkins is shot which is unlikely. Lacy was overhyped though & I've never seen the big deal with Kessler. Kessler is a good solid fighter, nothing more.
He had two of the titles you regard so highly. The two most signficant historically.

Perfect record hardly lost a round in his career. Beat a series of good high level fighters very convincingly. Achieved more at SMW than Trinidad did at 160 thats for certain.

Its a very good win. As is Lacy.
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Old 03-22-2008, 08:59 AM   #47
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Default Re: Joe Calzaghe vs Bernard Hopkins - The Record Comparison

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The revisionists will use his age as an excuse.

Just like in hindsight suddenly Lacy was overhyped. Ditto Kessler.
Age is a factor here though irrespective of revisionism. Lacy was CERTAINLY overhyped because of US fan boys and not enough was known about Kessler other than a glittering record prior to his loss to JC. Either way Joe can only beat the guys infront of him and fiinally his established his dominance at 68. As for a victory over Hopkins although the bout is worthy of the attention and media clamour its probably too little too late. When history looks at the win loss column for both a win for Hop will always have more value than a win for Joe.
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Old 03-22-2008, 09:05 AM   #48
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Default Re: Joe Calzaghe vs Bernard Hopkins - The Record Comparison

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Age is a factor here though irrespective of revisionism. Lacy was CERTAINLY overhyped because of US fan boys and not enough was known about Kessler other than a glittering record prior to his loss to JC. Either way Joe can only beat the guys infront of him and fiinally his established his dominance at 68. As for a victory over Hopkins although the bout is worthy of the attention and media clamour its probably too little too late. When history looks at the win loss column for both a win for Hop will always have more value than a win for Joe.
Lacy was on the exact same level as Jermain Taylor. The difference? Calzaghe destroyed his heir apparent with ease whereas Hopkins was defeated by his. Twice.

Who else could Lacy and Kessler have beaten to prove their status? They were the top contenders in the division at the time both undefeated and both highly heralded.

When Joe proposed moving up in 2004 to LHW people were saying that he was running scared of these two up and coming hit kids in the division. Why after they both became champions and Calzaghe faced them does he not get the credit he deserves? Its ridiculous.

Look at the second part of my comparison. I give Hopkins full credit for all that he achieved up until 2001 and gauged it. The achievements are simply on the same level as Calzaghes. From 2002-2004 he killed time waiting for a big money pay off with DLH rather than vigorously pursuing legacy enhancing matches with Calzaghe and RJJ.
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Old 03-22-2008, 09:10 AM   #49
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Default Re: Joe Calzaghe vs Bernard Hopkins - The Record Comparison

Cant agree. If you look at there styles Taylor is a box puncher with a sound jab. Lacy was just a slugger. Hopkins would have done exactly the same and stood him on his head. ANY box puncher including Taylor beats Lacy with relative ease. Lacy was brought along very quickly and gifted a title vs Vanderpool. Lacy had the look the crowd pleasing style and the killer instinct but he WAS a flawed fighter.
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Old 03-22-2008, 09:11 AM   #50
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Default Re: Joe Calzaghe vs Bernard Hopkins - The Record Comparison

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He had two of the titles you regard so highly. The two most signficant historically.

Perfect record hardly lost a round in his career. Beat a series of good high level fighters very convincingly. Achieved more at SMW than Trinidad did at 160 thats for certain.

Its a very good win. As is Lacy.
Yes thay did achieve more at that weight class but Trinidad was the better fighter without a shadow. Lacy is not even in the same league.
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Old 03-22-2008, 09:14 AM   #51
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Default Re: Joe Calzaghe vs Bernard Hopkins - The Record Comparison

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Cant agree. If you look at there styles Taylor is a box puncher with a sound jab. Lacy was just a slugger. Hopkins would have done exactly the same and stood him on his head. ANY box puncher including Taylor beats Lacy with relative ease. Lacy was brought along very quickly and gifted a title vs Vanderpool. Lacy had the look the crowd pleasing style and the killer instinct but he WAS a flawed fighter.
So is Taylor. Very flawed. He just had the style to give Hopkins fits. Taylor might dispose of this psychologically damaged version of Lacy but 2004-2005 Lacy? Im not so sure.

To say that any boxer puncher beats Lacy in the manner that Calzaghe did is a stretch at best.
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Old 03-22-2008, 09:17 AM   #52
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Default Re: Joe Calzaghe vs Bernard Hopkins - The Record Comparison

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Yes thay did achieve more at that weight class but Trinidad was the better fighter without a shadow. Lacy is not even in the same league.
Trinidad is a legend. I gave Hopkins great credit for that win. Some might debate it, but it was huge at the time. Just like Lacy, not many saw it coming they are comparable wins in that sense.

It seems crazy now but most though Tito would stop Hopkins! Again revisionists downplaying the signficance of a win in hindsight. It seems nuts but Hopkins would have got more credit from the naysayers if he was put on his arse 3 times in the first 5th and 6th before coming back to stop Tito rather than the clinic he actually produced!

Thats how illogical boxing fans are at times.
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Old 03-22-2008, 09:21 AM   #53
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Default Re: Joe Calzaghe vs Bernard Hopkins - The Record Comparison

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So is Taylor. Very flawed. He just had the style to give Hopkins fits. Taylor might dispose of this psychologically damaged version of Lacy but 2004-2005 Lacy? Im not so sure.

To say that any boxer puncher beats Lacy in the manner that Calzaghe did is a stretch at best.
Agreed Taylor is flawed. He only rose through the ranks quickly because he was the best of a very thin crop. Taylor is a good fighter.But not a GREAT fighter.He doesnt have the tools to be a true elite. BUT he is a very good listener and a hard worker and will do what is asked of him.

And i stand by my point on Lacy. Watch Lacys fight with Sheika. Watch his fight with Syd Vanderpool. Lacy doesnt possess a jab and simply isnt busy enough in the ring. He prefers to stalk his opponents walk them down and only looks good against static targets. Sheika who can be drawn into a war at will, gave him a torrid time as he was simply far more busier than Lacy. Even in the 2nd round Sheika stunned Lacy and Lacy immediately clinched and stopped throwing.His trainer even admonished him and said your not punching back your not moving your head. And thats EXACTLY what he did vs Joe. As soon as he got hit hard he stopped punching back and stopped throwing and simply copped a beating.
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Old 03-22-2008, 09:26 AM   #54
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Default Re: Joe Calzaghe vs Bernard Hopkins - The Record Comparison

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Agreed Taylor is flawed. He only rose through the ranks quickly because he was the best of a very thin crop. Taylor is a good fighter.But not a GREAT fighter.He doesnt have the tools to be a true elite. BUT he is a very good listener and a hard worker and will do what is asked of him.

And i stand by my point on Lacy. Watch Lacys fight with Sheika. Watch his fight with Syd Vanderpool. Lacy doesnt possess a jab and simply isnt busy enough in the ring. He prefers to stalk his opponents walk them down and only looks good against static targets. Sheika who can be drawn into a war at will, gave him a torrid time as he was simply far more busier than Lacy. Even in the 2nd round Sheika stunned Lacy and Lacy immediately clinched and stopped throwing.His trainer even admonished him and said your not punching back your not moving your head. And thats EXACTLY what he did vs Joe. As soon as he got hit hard he stopped punching back and stopped throwing and simply copped a beating.
This is a formidable argument. Ive not seen those fights for years but I do particularly remember him having a bit of a tough time with Sheika...though that was overshadowed by the twin destructions of Reid and Pemberton.

May I ask you however, how much credit you will give Calzaghe should he defeat Hopkins ?
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Old 03-22-2008, 09:29 AM   #55
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Default Re: Joe Calzaghe vs Bernard Hopkins - The Record Comparison

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This is a formidable argument. Ive not seen those fights for years but I do particularly remember him having a bit of a tough time with Sheika...though that was overshadowed by the twin destructions of Reid and Pemberton.

May I ask you however, how much credit you will give Calzaghe should he defeat Hopkins ?
Sheika was hitting him with LEAD right hands. That shows how easy Jeff is to hit. I loved Jeffs look attitude and style but the facts are he was way to flawed as a fighter and certainly not good enough to beat Joe on ANY day of the week. As for the Reid fight i dont know wether id call it a destruction. Lacy was a bit wild and not that accurate with his punches. They were more like clubbing blows and Reid simply gave up and wilted but complained bitterly about the stoppage. To be fair both fighters by the time they fought Lacy had seen much better days.Even Manfredo put Pemperton away with ease. Pemperton only got lots of air time because of his wars with Sheika.

If Joe beats Hop again very good win but in terms of historical value its too little to late. Hop has more to win purely because of his age than Joe.
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Old 03-22-2008, 09:30 AM   #56
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Default Re: Joe Calzaghe vs Bernard Hopkins - The Record Comparison

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Originally Posted by scurlaruntings
Cant agree. If you look at there styles Taylor is a box puncher with a sound jab. Lacy was just a slugger. Hopkins would have done exactly the same and stood him on his head. ANY box puncher including Taylor beats Lacy with relative ease. Lacy was brought along very quickly and gifted a title vs Vanderpool. Lacy had the look the crowd pleasing style and the killer instinct but he WAS a flawed fighter.
No way, Hopkins doesn't have the workrate to beat Lacy like Joe did although I agree he would win a decision.
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Old 03-22-2008, 09:33 AM   #57
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Default Re: Joe Calzaghe vs Bernard Hopkins - The Record Comparison

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Originally Posted by scurlaruntings
Sheika was hitting him with LEAD right hands. That shows how easy Jeff is to hit. I loved Jeffs look attitude and style but the facts are he was way to flawed as a fighter and certainly not good enough to beat Joe on ANY day of the week.

If Joe beats Hop again very good win but in terms of historical value its too little to late. Hop has more to win purely because of his age than Joe.
I agree with your point that Hopkins has more to gain. People will whether I or others on this board, like it or not, cite Hopkins age as a factor in him losing, rightly or wrongly.

That it has happened at this stage is of course not exactly Calzaghes fault. Hopkins was the one who agreed to the fight before unreasonably doubling his demands just as it was about to happen in 2002...when Calzaghe had a little momentum at that time no less.

I am, however happy that its at least happening now even if Calzaghe still doesn't get the credit I feel he deserves after this one. He can't win anyway, if he fought and beat Dawson a load of people would say Dawson had only beaten Adamek overhyped prospect etc.
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Old 03-22-2008, 09:44 AM   #58
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Default Re: Joe Calzaghe vs Bernard Hopkins - The Record Comparison

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I agree with your point that Hopkins has more to gain. People will whether I or others on this board, like it or not, cite Hopkins age as a factor in him losing, rightly or wrongly.

That it has happened at this stage is of course not exactly Calzaghes fault. Hopkins was the one who agreed to the fight before unreasonably doubling his demands just as it was about to happen in 2002...when Calzaghe had a little momentum at that time no less.

I am, however happy that its at least happening now even if Calzaghe still doesn't get the credit I feel he deserves after this one. He can't win anyway, if he fought and beat Dawson a load of people would say Dawson had only beaten Adamek overhyped prospect etc.
Take solice in the fact that fighters generally become appreciated after their retirement. Hopkins career comes under a fair amount of scrutiny as well remember & not just by JC nuts.

How many more fights do you think JC will have should he emerge triumphant? Do you think he'd retire if he lost?
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Old 03-22-2008, 09:49 AM   #59
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Default Re: Joe Calzaghe vs Bernard Hopkins - The Record Comparison

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Take solice in the fact that fighters generally become appreciated after their retirement. Hopkins career comes under a fair amount of scrutiny as well remember & not just by JC nuts.

How many more fights do you think JC will have should he emerge triumphant? Do you think he'd retire if he lost?
1 or 2. Yep I believe he would retire if he lost...he seems very set on retirement after this year in any case.

I see him fighting Woods for sure should he come through against Tarver. If he fails, a fight against Pavlik is wholly possible. If Tarver wins and faces off against Dawson(which I believe is the plan) then the clamour to fight the winner of that might see him have one more outing.

Bascially, its hard to say at this point. All will become clear following those two weeks in April.
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Old 03-22-2008, 10:08 AM   #60
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Default Re: Joe Calzaghe vs Bernard Hopkins - The Record Comparison

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1 or 2. Yep I believe he would retire if he lost...he seems very set on retirement after this year in any case.

I see him fighting Woods for sure should he come through against Tarver. If he fails, a fight against Pavlik is wholly possible. If Tarver wins and faces off against Dawson(which I believe is the plan) then the clamour to fight the winner of that might see him have one more outing.

Bascially, its hard to say at this point. All will become clear following those two weeks in April.
Hold the phone. If Johnson upsets Dawson & Tarver beats Woods does that mean we have to watch Johnson Tarver again?

Where does Danny Green fit into all of this?
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