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Old 07-13-2007, 05:07 PM   #31
TBooze
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Default Re: Can A Case Be Made To Place Duran At #1 P4P All Time?

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Originally Posted by GazOC
Even if you ignore the last Leonard fight (too old) and the Hagler fight (too small) he's still 1-3 pretty near his 'pomp'?
He was never quite same fighter after LeonardI so I suppose on that logic he was 1-0....
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Old 07-13-2007, 05:10 PM   #32
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Default Re: Can A Case Be Made To Place Duran At #1 P4P All Time?

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Originally Posted by GazOC
Even if you ignore the last Leonard fight (too old) and the Hagler fight (too small) he's still 1-3 pretty near his 'pomp'?
Why would you want to scratch the Hagler performance? There's an argument for that being his best.

A lightweight extending one of the great MW's of all time all the way to 15? That's extraordinary.
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Old 07-13-2007, 05:16 PM   #33
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Default Re: Can A Case Be Made To Place Duran At #1 P4P All Time?

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Originally Posted by TBooze
No, that is what gives him a shot at the #1 slot...

You're judging too much on 'fame' again. Although what you say has probably helped towards a Top 5 slot, but 'no mas' prevented him ever being first. The 'best fighter ever' doesn't do that. He can't be No: 1...and he isn't.
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Old 07-13-2007, 05:35 PM   #34
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Default Re: Can A Case Be Made To Place Duran At #1 P4P All Time?

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Originally Posted by My dinner with Conteh
You're judging too much on 'fame' again. Although what you say has probably helped towards a Top 5 slot, but 'no mas' prevented him ever being first. The 'best fighter ever' doesn't do that. He can't be No: 1...and he isn't.
The most popular are very often the ones who can redeem themselves. Robinson was exceptional as a 147lber, but he never would be #1 without regainiong the 160lbs 5 times (and losing it in the ring four times). Ali would not be the same, without redeeming his demons of the late 60s and the first Frazier fight.

Iconic status is always going to be a factor, it is what probably gives most a bias, in what is a premiss that borders on the totally ridiculous:

i.e. I believe a man who weighed 94lbs in 1915 (Jimmy Wilde) is pound for pound better than a 250lb man from the 21st Century (Lewis)...

But hey it is fun, so we carry on doing it
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Old 07-13-2007, 05:36 PM   #35
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Default Re: Can A Case Be Made To Place Duran At #1 P4P All Time?

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Originally Posted by TBooze
No, that is what gives him a shot at the #1 slot...
That logic doesn't work unless you apply over-the-top weight to redemptions.

I think redemptions are better in/during battle -when a fighter is being outmanned or is outgunned and turns the tide. But reclaiming titles after losing them or reclaiming your reputation after soiling it -only evens the score... it doesn't really enhance it. Robinson losing to Carmen and Gene doesn't enhance his status, strictly speaking.
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Old 07-13-2007, 05:38 PM   #36
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Default Re: Can A Case Be Made To Place Duran At #1 P4P All Time?

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Originally Posted by TBooze
The most popular are very often the ones who can redeem themselves. Robinson was exceptional as a 147lber, but he never would be #1 without regainiong the 160lbs 5 times (and losing it in the ring four times). Ali would not be the same, without redeeming his demons of the late 60s and the first Frazier fight.

Iconic status is always going to be a factor, it is what probably gives most a bias, in what is a premiss that borders on the totally ridiculous:

i.e. I believe a man who weighed 94lbs in 1907 (Jimmy Wilde) is pound for pound better than a 250lb man from the 21st Century (Lewis)...

But hey it is fun, so we carry on doing it

Fair point. Although I think Robinson would have been regarded as #1 if he'd retired after regaining middleweight crown after Olson anyway.
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Old 07-13-2007, 05:39 PM   #37
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Default Re: Can A Case Be Made To Place Duran At #1 P4P All Time?

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Originally Posted by McGrain
Why would you want to scratch the Hagler performance? There's an argument for that being his best.

A lightweight extending one of the great MW's of all time all the way to 15? That's extraordinary.

Of course taking Hagler the full 15 was a great performance from Duran. I was just trying to best 'legitimate' score for Duran against the other boxers mentioned (see the post I quoted).
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Old 07-13-2007, 05:40 PM   #38
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Default Re: Can A Case Be Made To Place Duran At #1 P4P All Time?

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Originally Posted by My dinner with Conteh
Fair point. Although I think Robinson would have been regarded as #1 if he'd retired after regaining middleweight crown after Olson anyway.
I agree.

Although he'd be grossly underated in Classic because so many casual fans would insist he was practically unbeatable.
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Old 07-13-2007, 05:40 PM   #39
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Default Re: Can A Case Be Made To Place Duran At #1 P4P All Time?

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Originally Posted by GazOC
Of course taking Hagler the full 15 was a great performance from Duran. I was just trying to best 'legitimate' score for Duran against the other boxers mentioned (see the post I quoted).
Sure.
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Old 07-13-2007, 05:42 PM   #40
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Default Re: Can A Case Be Made To Place Duran At #1 P4P All Time?

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Originally Posted by Stonehands89
That logic doesn't work unless you apply over-the-top weight to redemptions.
In this case what has weight got to do with redemption?

To comeback from his demons in New Orleans, to do things Duran did in 83 and 89 is amazing.

Whether they are a factor in making Duran the finest fighter ever, is of course open to a lot of debate, but it certainly does not harm his cause And the fact he was over his prime weight when he did these deeds, adds to them IMO.
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Old 07-13-2007, 05:44 PM   #41
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Default Re: Can A Case Be Made To Place Duran At #1 P4P All Time?

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Originally Posted by JohnThomas1
Can't argue here. SRR, Hank, Page etc, no such blemish.


Page KO1 Ali
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Old 07-13-2007, 05:47 PM   #42
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Default Re: Can A Case Be Made To Place Duran At #1 P4P All Time?

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Page KO1 Ali
Hey JohnThomas will tell you that is what happened when they began sparring together in 80/81
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Old 07-13-2007, 07:28 PM   #43
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Default Re: Can A Case Be Made To Place Duran At #1 P4P All Time?

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Originally Posted by My dinner with Conteh
Funny enough, despite Duran becoming a 4-weight champ in the 1980s and achieving greater things, I think if he had retired after Montreal, you could make a decent case for #1 spot.
Oh yes indeed. Trouble is none of them retire on top. Heck, Duran couldn't retire for a decade or more.
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Old 07-13-2007, 07:50 PM   #44
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Default Re: Can A Case Be Made To Place Duran At #1 P4P All Time?

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Originally Posted by Duodenum
One name: Tommy Hearns.

In SRR's entire 201 match professional career (and 286 combined amateur and pro bouts combined), nobody ever punched Ray into a stoppage defeat. While I think a very strong case can be made for Duran at number two, the fact is that Robby, in his first 216 amateur and professional matches combined, had an overall record of 213-1-2 with 153 knockouts. These are staggering totals. Duran's record simply doesn't measure up to that.
Duran started off something like Bantam, Robinson lightweight. It's the equivilent of Robinson fighting Bob Foster at 175 and who knows what would have happened. We have to consider Robinson not being up for the fight as Duran often wasn't post Leonard I.
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Old 07-13-2007, 07:54 PM   #45
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Default Re: Can A Case Be Made To Place Duran At #1 P4P All Time?

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Originally Posted by TBooze
Hey JohnThomas will tell you that is what happened when they began sparring together in 80/81
Page was doing ok, landed a big right hand and Ali got serious. Onlookers had to remind Ali he was just a kid.
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