Boxing  

Forum Home Boxing Forum European British Classic Aussie MMA Training
Go Back   Boxing News 24 Forum > Boxing > Classic Boxing Forum


Reply
 
Thread Tools
Old 07-13-2007, 07:55 PM   #46
JohnThomas1
Undisputed Champion
East Side VIP
 
Join Date: Apr 2005
Location: Australia
Posts: 11,119
vCash: 1000
Default Re: Can A Case Be Made To Place Duran At #1 P4P All Time?

Quote:
Originally Posted by Nemesis


Page KO1 Ali
You've come a long way!
JohnThomas1 is offline  Top
Reply With Quote
Sponsored Links
Old 07-14-2007, 04:56 AM   #47
mcvey
P4P King
East Side VIP
 
Join Date: Jun 2006
Location: The Garden Of England
Posts: 21,428
vCash: 1000
Default Re: Can A Case Be Made To Place Duran At #1 P4P All Time?

Quote:
Originally Posted by McGrain
What do you think?

If not why not, if so...preach!
No! Not while there is Robinson,Armstrong,and Greb to consider,imo.
mcvey is offline  Top
Reply With Quote
Old 07-14-2007, 08:03 AM   #48
Stonehands89
Champion
East Side Guru
 
Join Date: Dec 2005
Posts: 5,264
vCash: 1000
Default Re: Can A Case Be Made To Place Duran At #1 P4P All Time?

Quote:
Originally Posted by TBooze
In this case what has weight got to do with redemption?

To comeback from his demons in New Orleans, to do things Duran did in 83 and 89 is amazing.

Whether they are a factor in making Duran the finest fighter ever, is of course open to a lot of debate, but it certainly does not harm his cause And the fact he was over his prime weight when he did these deeds, adds to them IMO.
By weight, I don't mean pounds, I mean emphasis. Redemptions require loss. Loss hurts status. If Duran went out like a man against Leonard II, then rose up in weight and faced down all of his challenges (particularly Moore, Hagler, and Hearns), he'd topple Robinson. He would be king of the world.

It is indeed a mark of character to come back from bad losses, but I don't think it enhances standing in ATG ratings. Nothing does that like winning.
Stonehands89 is offline  Top
Reply With Quote
Old 07-14-2007, 08:09 AM   #49
McGrain
Diamond Dog
East Side VIP
 
Join Date: Mar 2007
Posts: 37,093
vCash: 1000
Default Re: Can A Case Be Made To Place Duran At #1 P4P All Time?

Quote:
Originally Posted by Stonehands89
It is indeed a mark of character to come back from bad losses, but I don't think it enhances standing in ATG ratings. Nothing does that like winning.
Although there are exceptions, no?

I'd say Frazier's loss to Ali in Manilla enhances his ATG status (who would have guessed even Joe had such reserves of stamina, will and heart?)

I wonder how things would have panned out if Duran had won an immediate rubber.
McGrain is offline  Top
Reply With Quote
Old 07-14-2007, 08:20 AM   #50
Stonehands89
Champion
East Side Guru
 
Join Date: Dec 2005
Posts: 5,264
vCash: 1000
Default Re: Can A Case Be Made To Place Duran At #1 P4P All Time?

Quote:
Originally Posted by McGrain
Although there are exceptions, no?

I'd say Frazier's loss to Ali in Manilla enhances his ATG status (who would have guessed even Joe had such reserves of stamina, will and heart?)

I wonder how things would have panned out if Duran had won an immediate rubber.
It also meant that Ali avenged the Frazier loss twice. If Ali couldn't come out for the last round in Manila and Frazier won, would Frazier climb your ATG HW ratings? He would mine.
Stonehands89 is offline  Top
Reply With Quote
Old 07-14-2007, 08:21 AM   #51
JohnThomas1
Undisputed Champion
East Side VIP
 
Join Date: Apr 2005
Location: Australia
Posts: 11,119
vCash: 1000
Default Re: Can A Case Be Made To Place Duran At #1 P4P All Time?

Quote:
Originally Posted by Stonehands89
It also meant that Ali avenged the Frazier loss twice. If Ali couldn't come out for the last round in Manila and Frazier won, would Frazier climb your ATG HW ratings? He would mine.
Totally agree. If Frazier beat Ali 3 times then Foreman then retires............
JohnThomas1 is offline  Top
Reply With Quote
Old 07-14-2007, 08:24 AM   #52
Stonehands89
Champion
East Side Guru
 
Join Date: Dec 2005
Posts: 5,264
vCash: 1000
Default Re: Can A Case Be Made To Place Duran At #1 P4P All Time?

Quote:
Originally Posted by McGrain
I wonder how things would have panned out if Duran had won an immediate rubber.
An immediate rubber? Duran was such a psychological mess after No Mas that he might have come in out of shape again. Who knows.

Let's say that he did get in great shape and was inspired at the end of 81. Duran would not have beaten Leonard again. The window where he ever would have been able to beat Leonard was 79-80. He slowed down a smidgen after that, and that would spell the difference.

However, best for best, I take Duran.
Stonehands89 is offline  Top
Reply With Quote
Old 07-14-2007, 09:18 AM   #53
TBooze
Undisputed Champion
East Side VIP
 
Join Date: Oct 2006
Location: South of London
Posts: 10,833
vCash: 0
Default Re: Can A Case Be Made To Place Duran At #1 P4P All Time?

Quote:
Originally Posted by Stonehands89
It is indeed a mark of character to come back from bad losses, but I don't think it enhances standing in ATG ratings. Nothing does that like winning.
I disagree human nature does not always reward winning. Outside of boxing very often people have to lose, so redemption can make them greater; Gandhi became a greater man by losing his fight to keep the people of India together; Mandela was never greater than when he was prison; Churchill was driven to greatness by the demons of Gallipoli...

Duran became a better fighter for redeeming himself post New Orleans IMO.
TBooze is offline  Top
Reply With Quote
Old 07-14-2007, 09:25 AM   #54
Stonehands89
Champion
East Side Guru
 
Join Date: Dec 2005
Posts: 5,264
vCash: 1000
Default Re: Can A Case Be Made To Place Duran At #1 P4P All Time?

Quote:
Originally Posted by TBooze
I disagree human nature does not always reward winning. Outside of boxing very often people have to lose, so redemption can make them greater; Gandhi became a greater man by losing his fight to keep the people of India together; Mandela was never greater than when he was prison; Churchill was driven to greatness by the demons of Gallipoli...

Duran became a better fighter for redeeming himself post New Orleans IMO.
I like the analogies and am guilty of indulging in the same myself. I think we would both do well to remember that boxing is, ultimately, a sport.

Here we go... Jesus's loss was mankind's gain and I'm a believer. But if Golgotha were a ring, then Jesus took a dive and boxrec would read like this:

Caesar KO 3 Jesus "the Nazarene"
Stonehands89 is offline  Top
Reply With Quote
Old 07-14-2007, 09:29 AM   #55
TBooze
Undisputed Champion
East Side VIP
 
Join Date: Oct 2006
Location: South of London
Posts: 10,833
vCash: 0
Default Re: Can A Case Be Made To Place Duran At #1 P4P All Time?

Quote:
Originally Posted by Stonehands89
I like the analogies and am guilty of indulging in the same myself. I think we would both do well to remember that boxing is, ultimately, a sport.

Here we go... Jesus's loss was mankind's gain and I'm a believer. But if Golgotha were a ring, then Jesus took a dive and boxrec would read like this:

Caesar KO 3 Jesus "the Nazarene"
TBooze is offline  Top
Reply With Quote
Old 07-14-2007, 12:37 PM   #56
McGrain
Diamond Dog
East Side VIP
 
Join Date: Mar 2007
Posts: 37,093
vCash: 1000
Default Re: Can A Case Be Made To Place Duran At #1 P4P All Time?

Quote:
Originally Posted by Stonehands89
If Ali couldn't come out for the last round in Manila and Frazier won, would Frazier climb your ATG HW ratings? He would mine.
Of couse, of course. I just meant a man can imporove his standing in defeat, like Conn or Bradock v Louis or Buchanan v Duran for example.
McGrain is offline  Top
Reply With Quote
Old 07-14-2007, 01:14 PM   #57
Robbi
Marvelous
East Side Guru
 
Join Date: Jul 2004
Location: UK
Posts: 7,550
vCash: 1000
Default Re: Can A Case Be Made To Place Duran At #1 P4P All Time?

BORKED


Who can mind of this, I certainly can't.


Maybe because I was only 3 years old.
Robbi is offline  Top
Reply With Quote
Old 07-15-2007, 07:31 AM   #58
Sonny's jab
Guest
 
Posts: n/a
vCash:
Default Re: Can A Case Be Made To Place Duran At #1 P4P All Time?

Yes, I think a case can be made for Duran at number 1.

Personally I'd probably put Robinson, Greb, Armstrong, Pep, Charles, Moore, B.Leonard, Langford, Saddler, and perhaps Monzon ahead of him.
 Top
Reply With Quote
Old 07-15-2007, 07:48 AM   #59
McGrain
Diamond Dog
East Side VIP
 
Join Date: Mar 2007
Posts: 37,093
vCash: 1000
Default Re: Can A Case Be Made To Place Duran At #1 P4P All Time?

Quote:
Originally Posted by Sonny's jab
Personally I'd probably put Robinson, Greb, Armstrong, Pep, Charles, Moore, B.Leonard, Langford, Saddler, and perhaps Monzon ahead of him.

Monzon sticks out like a sore thumb there - a fine fighter but what's the case for having him ahead of Duran p4p?
McGrain is offline  Top
Reply With Quote
Old 07-15-2007, 08:09 AM   #60
Sonny's jab
Guest
 
Posts: n/a
vCash:
Default Re: Can A Case Be Made To Place Duran At #1 P4P All Time?

Quote:
Originally Posted by McGrain
Monzon sticks out like a sore thumb there - a fine fighter but what's the case for having him ahead of Duran p4p?
He dominated his division for about 7 or 8 years, beat a very good crop of challengers, most of them with utter ease. His opposition at MW may well have been better than Duran's at LW. Monzon would edge Duran as fighter of the decade for the 1970s in many people's minds.
I prefer Duran's style but Monzon is arguably greater.
 Top
Reply With Quote
Reply

Boxing News 24 Forum > Boxing > Classic Boxing Forum

Thread Tools

Posting Rules
You may not post new threads
You may not post replies
You may not post attachments
You may not edit your posts

BB code is On
Smilies are On
[IMG] code is Off
HTML code is Off

Forum Jump





All times are GMT -4. The time now is 11:14 PM.


Powered by vBulletin® Version 3.8.0
Copyright ©2000 - 2014, Jelsoft Enterprises Ltd.
Boxing News 24 Forum 2013