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Old 07-13-2007, 05:38 AM   #16
Senya13
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Default Re: Hearns - Power...

Quote:
Originally Posted by fists of fury
Schuler is a nobody because Hearns made him a nobody. He never fought again after that brutal KO, despite being 22-0 at the time.
Of course, he didn't fight, he died in a motorcycle accident 1 week after the fight.
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Old 07-13-2007, 06:34 AM   #17
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Default Re: Hearns - Power...

Really? I didn't know that...that's tragic.

But why do you say Hearn's power is so overrated?
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Old 07-13-2007, 06:45 AM   #18
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Default Re: Hearns - Power...

Depends how you define power. To me, there are two ends of the spectrum and slots in between. You have Bob Foster and Thomas Hearns at one end with their whipping, concussing punches. They aren't strong punches, but carry high velocity due to leverage, speed and a natural technique. At the other end, you have George Foreman and Bennie Briscoe; the punches thrown by these men are not as fast and snapping, but the strength contained will penetrate your guard and physically move you. There are varying levels in between these two, where Joe Louis, Marvin Hagler and Ike Williams belong. Let's say, for the sake of whatever, that Hearns and Foster were '10' and Briscoe and Foreman were '0'. One end represents snap and velocity, the other represents strength and raw power; a '5' is an equal balance of the two. Here's how it would look to me:

10 - Foster, Hearns, Robinson

8 - Williams, R. Lopez, Tyson

6 - Louis, Moore, Arguello

4 - Duran, Hagler, Marciano

2 - Chavez, Galaxy, Olivares

0 - Foreman, Briscoe, Saddler

All these punchers are roughly on the same level, though I tend to think the better ones reside from 6-10.
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Old 07-13-2007, 07:00 AM   #19
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Default Re: Hearns - Power...

Great post, but i'd have Louis on the level up from Alexis, i reckon he had a fair bit more snap and speed. Arguello didn't have fast hands, but i class Louis not far from Ali for handspeed and snap personally. I think his speed is the most underrated part about him.
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Old 07-13-2007, 07:02 AM   #20
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Default Re: Hearns - Power...

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Originally Posted by JohnThomas1
Great post, but i'd have Louis on the level up from Alexis, i reckon he had a fair bit more snap and speed. Arguello didn't have fast hands, but i class Louis not far from Ali for handspeed and snap personally. I think his speed is the most underrated part about him.
Perhaps. I don't really know where Arguello got his one-shot power from - he wasn't that fast or anything. His punches were straight and full of leverage but so were many others' shots and they didn't have the same effect as Arguello's. It's a mystery. Maybe he had just the right balance. Or timing? He might have learned to hit at precisely the right moment.
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Old 07-13-2007, 08:11 AM   #21
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Default Re: Hearns - Power...

Quote:
Originally Posted by fists of fury
Schuler is a nobody because Hearns made him a nobody. He never fought again after that brutal KO, despite being 22-0 at the time.

I don't think anyone is claiming Hearns to be a KO artist at say, 175, but Hearns always had power, no matter what weight he fought at. He beat down the tough Dennis Andries and knocked him down several times and although Virgil Hill went the distance, Tommy stung him several times with good shots and Hill's face was heavily marked after the bout.

What makes you say it's so overrated? Give us examples of where he struggled, power-wise.
Shuler didn't have a chance to, he was killed in a motorcycle accident.
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Old 07-13-2007, 08:22 AM   #22
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Default Re: Hearns - Power...

Quote:
Originally Posted by fists of fury
Schuler is a nobody because Hearns made him a nobody. He never fought again after that brutal KO, despite being 22-0 at the time.
Schuler was a legitmate top 10 160lber coming into the Hearns fight. He beat tough veteran Sugar Ray Seales, Clint Jackson, Kenny Bristol and most impressively he took the '0' of streaking James Kinchen.
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Old 07-13-2007, 08:23 AM   #23
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Default Re: Hearns - Power...

Quote:
Originally Posted by Manassa
Perhaps. I don't really know where Arguello got his one-shot power from - he wasn't that fast or anything. His punches were straight and full of leverage but so were many others' shots and they didn't have the same effect as Arguello's. It's a mystery. Maybe he had just the right balance. Or timing? He might have learned to hit at precisely the right moment.
Good point. Arguello neither had the snap of a Hearn's nor the heaviness and thud of a Foreman. Yet as a P4P puncher he ranks at the absolute pinnacle. I definitely see a beautiful delivery and close to textbook perfection on near every punch. Great leverage. It might be more than just timing tho, he sliced Escalera's lip pretty much off as well as other scary deeds. A difficult study this one.
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Old 07-13-2007, 08:34 AM   #24
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Default Re: Hearns - Power...

I think that few if any fighters of his weight have matched his power. I could suggest Mickey Walker, Barbados Joe Walcott and the younger Sam Langford.
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Old 07-13-2007, 09:23 AM   #25
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Default Re: Hearns - Power...

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Originally Posted by fists of fury
You claimed his power over 154 is "grossly overrated." (Your words.)

The Schuler fight clearly demonstrates that is isn't.
Forget the Schuler fight. Hearns floored Andries five times at light-heavyweight.
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Old 07-13-2007, 09:34 AM   #26
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Default Re: Hearns - Power...

Hearns retained great power all the way from 147 to 175 and even 190 really. IMO he is absolutely automatic inclusion in the top 5 or 3. I have no problem at all with numero uno. The way he proved his power over so many divisions gives him the advantage over Foster and co IMO.
if we stipulate P4P power in a single division it gets closer. Alexis Arguello is another who showed enormous power over a big division span.
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Old 07-13-2007, 09:44 AM   #27
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Default Re: Hearns - Power...

the only fight i can think of from memory at middle where hearns power can be questioned is against doug dewitt whom hearns landed flush over and over again and doug slapped his own chin and asked for more.(it may not have quite happened like that but thats how i remember it)
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Old 07-13-2007, 09:50 AM   #28
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Default Re: Hearns - Power...

Quote:
Originally Posted by dalek
the only fight i can think of from memory at middle where hearns power can be questioned is against doug dewitt whom hearns landed flush over and over again and doug slapped his own chin and asked for more.(it may not have quite happened like that but thats how i remember it)
Thast's always going to happen tho. Mannassa tonight pointed out Foster - Finnegan, similar. It can happen. The fascinating thing is DeWitt had never been stopped going into the Hearns fight yet was stopped by a mug next fight in just 3 rounds.

Delayed reaction?

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Old 07-13-2007, 09:52 AM   #29
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Default Re: Hearns - Power...

Quote:
Originally Posted by JohnThomas1
Hearns retained great power all the way from 147 to 175 and even 190 really. IMO he is absolutely automatic inclusion in the top 5 or 3. I have no problem at all with numero uno. The way he proved his power over so many divisions gives him the advantage over Foster and co IMO.
if we stipulate P4P power in a single division it gets closer. Alexis Arguello is another who showed enormous power over a big division span.
Agreed to a certain extent. He did retain his power all the way from 147lbs to 190lbs, but he was not as consistent with it. His power clearly decreased while moving up, but thats understandable. Hearns was a great puncher, then again he wasn't superman.
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Old 07-13-2007, 10:06 AM   #30
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Default Re: Hearns - Power...

Quote:
Originally Posted by Robbi
Agreed to a certain extent. He did retain his power all the way from 147lbs to 190lbs, but he was not as consistent with it. His power clearly decreased while moving up, but thats understandable. Hearns was a great puncher, then again he wasn't superman.
Can you name me another fighter who exuded such power over 30-40 pounds?
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