Old Holmes vs. Old Louis

Muchmoore · 07-13-2007, 12:09 PM

Who wins in a fight between the Holmes that got stopped by Tyson in 4 rounds and the Louis that was finished by Marciano in 8? I hear people give credit to Marciano for this win quite a lot, while people rarely give Tyson credit for it, saying Holmes was shot.

They are about the same age and I'll post my pick later when I make up my mind on this.

McGrain · 07-13-2007, 12:12 PM

Quote:

Originally Posted by Muchmoore

I hear people give credit to Marciano for this win quite a lot, while people rarely give Tyson credit for it, saying Holmes was shot.

Good point.

Having never seen old Louis, I will not make a pick here.

unitas · 07-13-2007, 12:15 PM

i would pick holmes. he was more mobile at 38 than louis and he still had that great jab.

louis on the other hand still had some power.....but was really slow and mechanical.

he also still had a good jab, but holmes would beat that jab every time.

therefore i pick holmes to win a very painfull 10round UD.

mr. magoo · 07-13-2007, 12:19 PM

Given that Louis was active, fighting 8 times between 1950 and 1951, prior to facing Marciano, while Holmes hadn't fought in two years before meeting Tyson, I'd have to go with Louis on this one.

I will say however, that a better trained Holmes, who launched a comeback and beat Mercer in the early 90's would have my vote though.

Duodenum · 07-13-2007, 12:26 PM

Quote:

Originally Posted by Muchmoore

Who wins in a fight between the Holmes that got stopped by Tyson in 4 rounds and the Louis that was finished by Marciano in 8? I hear people give credit to Marciano for this win quite a lot, while people rarely give Tyson credit for it, saying Holmes was shot.

They are about the same age and I'll post my pick later when I make up my mind on this.

From my perspective, it would be more appropiriate to compare the Joe Louis of the Charles fight to the Larry Holmes of the Tyson match. In both instances, they were coming off an extended layoff, and were clearly rusty. Joe was a couple years younger than Larry, but had also been out of action for a longer period of time.

The Joe Louis of the Marciano fight was coming off a ten round win over Jimmy Bivins, and was on an eight match winning streak, with six of those over the ten round distance. He was 37 years old.

Against Tyson, Holmes was 38, coming off an 18 month layoff, and had a two match losing streak. Of course Joe wins that pairing, but I don't think it's an equitable comparison.

Robbi · 07-13-2007, 12:56 PM

The old Holmes who fought Mercer would have beaten an old Louis.

Its probably better to look at the best performances they had when both past their primes when trying to guage how a fight between them would have shaped up.

FlatNose · 07-13-2007, 01:16 PM

Holmes wouldn't have beaten Louis, young or old.Larry was just too easy to hit with the right, and Joes was short and sweet.Unlike Shavers and Snipes, when Louis had Larry going, the Brown Bomber would have finished it.

robert ungurean · 07-15-2007, 10:11 PM

Holmes

rekcutnevets · 07-15-2007, 10:38 PM

Holmes did not look all that bad getting blasted by Tyson. Tyson was just too strong for Holmes in that fight. Holmes problem in that fight was the time it took for him to set and reset before and after his punches. That, and trying to keep Mike off him.

Louis had to face Marciano. Regardless of who rates higher on your all time list, Maciano(on mine) or Tyson, Louis had it a little different in this match up. Marciano is slower than Tyson, smaller than Tyson, and less elusive than Tyson. These reasons helped Louis survive longer against Marciano than Holmes did against Tyson.

Holmes still had enough left in his 40's to defeat then undefeated 30 yr. old Ray Mercer.

Holmes jab would be too much for Joe in this fight. Larry by decision.

Bad_Intentions · 07-15-2007, 11:13 PM

Quote:

Originally Posted by McGrain

Good point.

Having never seen old Louis, I will not make a pick here.

louis was past his prime(old) against marciano

Marciano Frazier · 07-16-2007, 12:37 AM

Definitely Louis- Holmes was coming straight out of retirement after two years on pretty brief notice, while Louis had been very active, facing ranked contenders, and had won eight straight fights over the last year when he fought Marciano.

The Holmes of the Holyfield or Mercer fights, who had been active and training going in, would be a better match for the old Louis than the Holmes coming directly out of retirement who fought Tyson.

McGrain · 07-16-2007, 03:33 AM

Quote:

Originally Posted by Bad_Intentions

louis was past his prime(old) against marciano

I don't doubt it, but i've never seen that fight.

Mega Lamps · 07-16-2007, 11:40 AM

Louis was still a great fighter and would stop Holmes.

Street Lethal · 07-16-2007, 01:10 PM

Holmes style meant that he didn't take a lot of punishment. He had fifty fights under his belt. Louis took a lot of punishment. He had 71 fights plus dozens of exhibitions, many fought under real fight conditions. Louis was much older at 37 than Holmes was at 38. Holmes would go on to fight 25 more times after Tyson and only lose three bouts, all decision losses. Louis looked old in the Walcott and Charles fights.

When I think about this question I think about the Louis of the Marciano fight against the Holmes of the Tyson fight. I ask myself whether a 37 year old Joe Louis is comparable to a prime 21 year old Mike Tyson. Holmes boxed well before being knocked out. A young Tyson was too much for him at that point in his career. But an old Louis wouldn't be. Holmes would have finessed him and won a decision.

Others might ask if a 38 year old Holmes is comparable to a 28 year old Marciano. This may make Marciano fans unhappy, but I have to answer yes. Holmes was better at that age than Walcott, Charles and Moore, and they gave Marciano good fights. I don't believe that Marciano beats the Holmes that Tyson beat. He definitely doesn't knock him out in four rounds.

Louis lost to Marciano because he was old. In their primes, I don't believe Louis loses to Marciano. Louis was a great champion and an offensive machine. He put up a good effort against Marciano, but Louis was just too old to keep Marciano off of him.

However in my opinion Holmes was a bit better than Louis. He wasn't the offensive fighter Louis was, but he was bigger, quicker, and better defensively. I believe, like Ali, Holmes would have outpointed Joe Louis. Those styles are problems for Louis.

07-13-2007, 12:09 PM	#1
Muchmoore Champion East Side Guru Join Date: Jul 2005 Posts: 5,445 vCash: 1000	Old Holmes vs. Old Louis Who wins in a fight between the Holmes that got stopped by Tyson in 4 rounds and the Louis that was finished by Marciano in 8? I hear people give credit to Marciano for this win quite a lot, while people rarely give Tyson credit for it, saying Holmes was shot. They are about the same age and I'll post my pick later when I make up my mind on this.
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07-13-2007, 12:15 PM	#3
unitas Belt holder ESB Addict Join Date: May 2007 Location: xxyxxyxxyxxyxxyxxy Posts: 1,557 vCash: 1000	Re: Old Holmes vs. Old Louis i would pick holmes. he was more mobile at 38 than louis and he still had that great jab. louis on the other hand still had some power.....but was really slow and mechanical. he also still had a good jab, but holmes would beat that jab every time. therefore i pick holmes to win a very painfull 10round UD.
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07-13-2007, 12:19 PM	#4
mr. magoo Undisputed Champion East Side VIP Join Date: Jan 2007 Location: Chicago, Illinois USA Posts: 12,502 vCash: 1000	Re: Old Holmes vs. Old Louis Given that Louis was active, fighting 8 times between 1950 and 1951, prior to facing Marciano, while Holmes hadn't fought in two years before meeting Tyson, I'd have to go with Louis on this one. I will say however, that a better trained Holmes, who launched a comeback and beat Mercer in the early 90's would have my vote though.
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07-13-2007, 12:56 PM	#6
Robbi Marvelous East Side Guru Join Date: Jul 2004 Location: UK Posts: 7,766 vCash: 1000	Re: Old Holmes vs. Old Louis The old Holmes who fought Mercer would have beaten an old Louis. Its probably better to look at the best performances they had when both past their primes when trying to guage how a fight between them would have shaped up.
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07-13-2007, 01:16 PM	#7
FlatNose Belt holder ESB Addict Join Date: Feb 2006 Posts: 3,494 vCash: 1000	Re: Old Holmes vs. Old Louis Holmes wouldn't have beaten Louis, young or old.Larry was just too easy to hit with the right, and Joes was short and sweet.Unlike Shavers and Snipes, when Louis had Larry going, the Brown Bomber would have finished it.
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07-15-2007, 10:11 PM	#8
robert ungurean Belt holder ESB Addict Join Date: Jun 2007 Location: liftin 3 kettlebells in pa.usa Posts: 2,172 vCash: 1000	Re: Old Holmes vs. Old Louis Holmes
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07-15-2007, 10:38 PM	#9
rekcutnevets Black Sash East Side Guru Join Date: May 2007 Location: InYourMouth, NC Posts: 6,544 vCash: 1000	Re: Old Holmes vs. Old Louis Holmes did not look all that bad getting blasted by Tyson. Tyson was just too strong for Holmes in that fight. Holmes problem in that fight was the time it took for him to set and reset before and after his punches. That, and trying to keep Mike off him. Louis had to face Marciano. Regardless of who rates higher on your all time list, Maciano(on mine) or Tyson, Louis had it a little different in this match up. Marciano is slower than Tyson, smaller than Tyson, and less elusive than Tyson. These reasons helped Louis survive longer against Marciano than Holmes did against Tyson. Holmes still had enough left in his 40's to defeat then undefeated 30 yr. old Ray Mercer. Holmes jab would be too much for Joe in this fight. Larry by decision.
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07-16-2007, 12:37 AM	#11
Marciano Frazier Contender ESB Senior Member Join Date: Jul 2004 Posts: 1,482 vCash: 1000	Re: Old Holmes vs. Old Louis Definitely Louis- Holmes was coming straight out of retirement after two years on pretty brief notice, while Louis had been very active, facing ranked contenders, and had won eight straight fights over the last year when he fought Marciano. The Holmes of the Holyfield or Mercer fights, who had been active and training going in, would be a better match for the old Louis than the Holmes coming directly out of retirement who fought Tyson. Last edited by zivic1941; 03-09-2006 at 10:37 AM.
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07-16-2007, 11:40 AM	#13
Mega Lamps Contender ESB Senior Member Join Date: Jan 2007 Location: West Virginia Posts: 711 vCash: 1000	Re: Old Holmes vs. Old Louis Louis was still a great fighter and would stop Holmes.
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07-16-2007, 01:10 PM	#14
Street Lethal Gatekeeper ESB Full Member Join Date: Jul 2007 Posts: 494 vCash: 1000	Re: Old Holmes vs. Old Louis Holmes style meant that he didn't take a lot of punishment. He had fifty fights under his belt. Louis took a lot of punishment. He had 71 fights plus dozens of exhibitions, many fought under real fight conditions. Louis was much older at 37 than Holmes was at 38. Holmes would go on to fight 25 more times after Tyson and only lose three bouts, all decision losses. Louis looked old in the Walcott and Charles fights. When I think about this question I think about the Louis of the Marciano fight against the Holmes of the Tyson fight. I ask myself whether a 37 year old Joe Louis is comparable to a prime 21 year old Mike Tyson. Holmes boxed well before being knocked out. A young Tyson was too much for him at that point in his career. But an old Louis wouldn't be. Holmes would have finessed him and won a decision. Others might ask if a 38 year old Holmes is comparable to a 28 year old Marciano. This may make Marciano fans unhappy, but I have to answer yes. Holmes was better at that age than Walcott, Charles and Moore, and they gave Marciano good fights. I don't believe that Marciano beats the Holmes that Tyson beat. He definitely doesn't knock him out in four rounds. Louis lost to Marciano because he was old. In their primes, I don't believe Louis loses to Marciano. Louis was a great champion and an offensive machine. He put up a good effort against Marciano, but Louis was just too old to keep Marciano off of him. However in my opinion Holmes was a bit better than Louis. He wasn't the offensive fighter Louis was, but he was bigger, quicker, and better defensively. I believe, like Ali, Holmes would have outpointed Joe Louis. Those styles are problems for Louis.
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