Thoughts On Antofurmo/Hagler I & II? - Page 2

Nemesis · 03-29-2008, 08:50 PM

Quote:

Originally Posted by kenmore

Bummy and Nemesis: do you remember how you scored the first Hagler-Antuofermo in rounds?

sorry no, the last time i watched it I remember the commentary team were high on Marv and I felt they were not appreciating the work that Vito was doing in close. One thing is certain Auntofermo came on strong

salsanchezfan · 03-29-2008, 08:52 PM

..........I have it on VHS here somewhere. I'll score it tonight and post my results.

PhillyPhan69 · 03-29-2008, 08:54 PM

Quote:

Originally Posted by salsanchezfan

I agree that Hagler won, but it wasn't by a lot. Anyone claiming it to be some sort of terribly obvious thing is mistaken or hasn't seen it. Hagler DID fade noticeably in the second half of the fight, and Vito stole some rounds. I had Hagler by two points, and that's a close fight.

As to fight number two, Vito had been floored by Mauricio Aldana in the fight just before that, and suddenly seemed to look his age, according to what I've read (haven't seen that fight). That idea seemed reinforced when Hagler took him on the second time. I think the knockdown Hagker scored there was as much a balance issue for Vito as being hurt; the punch landed on his forehead, if memory serves, and he was squared up against Hagler I think. I'll have to watch it again.

Vito just seemed more passive and out of synch, and Marvin sliced him up, forcing a stoppage.

Which goes to show you, when Antuofermo didn't bleed, he could be difficult to stay with.

I am glad you are back. I agree I had a Hagler win in the First encounter, but in no way was it a lopsided fight. Vito is largely under rated and many times unappreciated. I love watching Minter-Antuofermo for a classic battle (one of the more difficult to score as well!). The first fight was Hagler's in my book, but robbery is harsh. I don't know what I can add about the 2nd encounter?

kenmore · 03-29-2008, 08:57 PM

Quote:

Originally Posted by salsanchezfan

..........I have it on VHS here somewhere. I'll score it tonight and post my results.

I agree with you that Hagler deserved to win by about two rounds. He built up quite an early fight lead and I don't believe Vito's late surge was enough to compensate.

It was cool to see Antuofermo buck the odds and give Hagler a great fight, but it was not cool to see the judges rip Hagler off again. This is especially so because Hagler was forced to wait so long for his title fight.

Marvin had to wait years before he was given a title shot, and he was forced to stand aside and see less deserving boxers get their shots ahead of him. They say Hagler was a guy with a chip on his shoulder, and frankly, I can totally understand why.

salsanchezfan · 03-29-2008, 09:01 PM

Quote:

Originally Posted by PhillyPhan69

I am glad you are back. I agree I had a Hagler win in the First encounter, but in no way was it a lopsided fight. Vito is largely under rated and many times unappreciated. I love watching Minter-Antuofermo for a classic battle (one of the more difficult to score as well!). The first fight was Hagler's in my book, but robbery is harsh. I don't know what I can add about the 2nd encounter?

...........Thanks man, nice to be back. I agree, Vito gets short shrift a lot of the time as "that bleeder guy." He was far more than that, even if he didn't have a lot in the way of classic skills or power. Doggedness really does count for something it seems.

salsanchezfan · 03-29-2008, 09:04 PM

Quote:

Originally Posted by kenmore

I agree with you that Hagler deserved to win by about two rounds. He built up quite an early fight lead and I don't believe Vito's late surge was enough to compensate.

It was cool to see Antuofermo buck the odds and give Hagler a great fight, but it was not cool to see the judges rip Hagler off again. This is especially so because Hagler was forced to wait so long for his title fight.

Marvin had to wait years before he was given a title shot, and he was forced to stand aside and see less deserving boxers get their shots ahead of him. They say Hagler was a guy with a chip on his shoulder, and frankly, I can totally understand why.

..........So if you had Hagler winning by only two points, would you then agree that that constitutes a close fight? By definition, how can any fight that close going one way or the other be considered a robbery?

Nemesis · 03-29-2008, 09:06 PM

Quote:

Originally Posted by kenmore

I agree with you that Hagler deserved to win by about two rounds. He built up quite an early fight lead and I don't believe Vito's late surge was enough to compensate.

It was cool to see Antuofermo buck the odds and give Hagler a great fight, but it was not cool to see the judges rip Hagler off again. This is especially so because Hagler was forced to wait so long for his title fight.

Marvin had to wait years before he was given a title shot, and he was forced to stand aside and see less deserving boxers get their shots ahead of him. They say Hagler was a guy with a chip on his shoulder, and frankly, I can totally understand why.

Boxing is boxing, there are a lot worse stories than Hagler having to wait a couple of years for his title shot, Robinson had to wait donkeys years to get his shot whilst some other greats like Burley and Langford never got their chance.

What I personally dislike in fighters is ones who bitch and whine and unfortunately Hagler takes it to the Nth degree, he is still struggling to come to terms with his last defeat, which as proven on polls on these boards, most agreed that Leonard just nicked it.

kenmore · 03-29-2008, 09:11 PM

Quote:

Originally Posted by salsanchezfan

..........So if you had Hagler winning by only two points, would you then agree that that constitutes a close fight? By definition, how can any fight that close going one way or the other be considered a robbery?

I didn't score it at the time...I am only estimating that Hagler won by a two or three point margin. Of one thing I am certain: Hagler deserved to win.

My answer to your question is that a fight can be close yet still be unquestionably in favor of one contestant.

As I recall, most of the rounds won by Hagler were very clear cut in terms of Hagler's dominance. I don't think there should be any question that Hagler won more rounds than Vito did. In terms of the final scorecard, that should have translated into Hagler having the fight in his pocket after fifteen rounds. This is true even in spite of Antuofermo taking control of the bout in the later rounds.

salsanchezfan · 03-29-2008, 09:20 PM

Quote:

Originally Posted by kenmore

I didn't score it at the time...I am only estimating that Hagler won by a two or three point margin. Of one thing I am certain: Hagler deserved to win.

My answer to your question is that a fight can be close yet still be unquestionably in favor of one contestant.

As I recall, most of the rounds won by Hagler were very clear cut in terms of Hagler's dominance. I don't think there should be any question that Hagler won more rounds than Vito did. In terms of the final scorecard, that should have translated into Hagler having the fight in his pocket after fifteen rounds. This is true even in spite of Antuofermo taking control of the bout in the later rounds.

.........Waitwaitwait.......you didn't actually score it, but you're sure Hagler took it? How's THAT work?

kenmore · 03-29-2008, 09:29 PM

Quote:

Originally Posted by salsanchezfan

.........Waitwaitwait.......you didn't actually score it, but you're sure Hagler took it? How's THAT work?

From what I saw it was clear that Hagler won more rounds than Vito did. Anyway, it really doesn't matter...we both agree that Hagler won.

As for Vito, it was one hell of an effort. The first Hagler fight was Vito's greatest effort as a professional. Had the fight been one of those old 20 rounders, Vito would have won.

I hated to see Antuofermo lose to Minter in his next fight. That spoiled the respect he won through his effort against Hagler.

PhillyPhan69 · 03-29-2008, 09:34 PM

Quote:

Originally Posted by kenmore

From what I saw it was clear that Hagler won more rounds than Vito did. Anyway, it really doesn't matter...we both agree that Hagler won.

As for Vito, it was one hell of an effort. The first Hagler fight was Vito's greatest effort as a professional. Had the fight been one of those old 20 rounders, Vito would have won.

I hated to see Antuofermo lose to Minter in his next fight. That spoiled the respect he won through his effort against Hagler.

You must not be a Minter appreciator. His first fight with Minter should raise the stock of both of them. Argument could be made just as easily that Vito won the first encounter.

kenmore · 03-29-2008, 09:37 PM

Quote:

Originally Posted by PhillyPhan69

You must not be a Minter appreciator. His first fight with Minter should raise the stock of both of them. Argument could be made just as easily that Vito won the first encounter.

Actually I liked Alan Minter as well. But the Antuofermo-Minter bout was so close, as you point out, that it was a shame to see Vito lose it. I agree that it could have gone either way.

salsanchezfan · 03-29-2008, 09:42 PM

..........Got Hagler-Vito on right now. Scoring away......

Cosell is describing how this is the warmup fight for the to-be-aired Leoanrd-Benitez fight on Wide World Of Sports. Christ, those were the days.

kenmore · 03-29-2008, 09:46 PM

Quote:

Originally Posted by salsanchezfan

..........Got Hagler-Vito on right now. Scoring away......

Cosell is describing how this is the warmup fight for the to-be-aired Leoanrd-Benitez fight on Wide World Of Sports. Christ, those were the days.

Why don't you give us updates and your scores on a round-by-round basis. That would be very interesting. Thanks.

salsanchezfan · 03-29-2008, 10:36 PM

........Well shit. I have two VHS copies of this one, and the one I could find seems to be missing rounds 7 and 9. The other one is missing round 15, which would have been the better one to root out, but there ya go. Between the two, I have the complete fight.

I gave Hagler rounds 1 thru 4
Vito wins round five
Round six even
Round eight To Vito
Rounds 10 and 11 to Hagler
Rounds 12 thru 14 go to Vito; Hagler becomes much less active and allows Antuofermo to crowd him more.
Round 15 is close, but goes to Hagler.

I gotta find that other copy. I also have to start labelling this shit.

03-29-2008, 08:52 PM	#17
salsanchezfan Champion East Side Guru Join Date: Aug 2004 Location: Auburn, WA Posts: 6,895 vCash: 1000	Re: Thoughts On Antofurmo/Hagler I & II? ..........I have it on VHS here somewhere. I'll score it tonight and post my results.
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03-29-2008, 09:42 PM	#28
salsanchezfan Champion East Side Guru Join Date: Aug 2004 Location: Auburn, WA Posts: 6,895 vCash: 1000	Re: Thoughts On Antofurmo/Hagler I & II? ..........Got Hagler-Vito on right now. Scoring away...... Cosell is describing how this is the warmup fight for the to-be-aired Leoanrd-Benitez fight on Wide World Of Sports. Christ, those were the days.
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03-29-2008, 10:36 PM	#30
salsanchezfan Champion East Side Guru Join Date: Aug 2004 Location: Auburn, WA Posts: 6,895 vCash: 1000	Re: Thoughts On Antofurmo/Hagler I & II? ........Well shit. I have two VHS copies of this one, and the one I could find seems to be missing rounds 7 and 9. The other one is missing round 15, which would have been the better one to root out, but there ya go. Between the two, I have the complete fight. I gave Hagler rounds 1 thru 4 Vito wins round five Round six even Round eight To Vito Rounds 10 and 11 to Hagler Rounds 12 thru 14 go to Vito; Hagler becomes much less active and allows Antuofermo to crowd him more. Round 15 is close, but goes to Hagler. I gotta find that other copy. I also have to start labelling this shit.
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