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Old 07-14-2007, 01:27 PM   #46
hobgoblin
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Default Re: Ali v tyson

Any version of Muhammad Ali from 1964-1975 will win handily IMO. In the case of 60s Ali - his lateral movement would have Tyson following around in circles as Ali scored points and gradually cut up Tyson with his speed and reach and workrate. Tyson would always be at bay - looking to land a few body shots and a few hard punches to the chin - Ali can handle that. Those who question Ali's power - his heavy punching is highly underrated as is the damage he can do - just look at Liston's face as early as round 7! Larry Holmes said that Holyfield hit at the level of Ali - this is sufficient power to stop Mike Tyson.

Ali's sense of timing, his reach, his speed, his accuracy, his jabs and right hand leads would be too much for Tyson's amazing reflexes to handle. The only way to deal with that IMO, is Joe Frazier's random bobbing and weaving or be be a boxer that stays back and fights with reach (not Tyson's style). Tyson would be flat footed after 5 rounds and then Ali would catch tag him.

Mike Tyson was a great puncher but he did not have the work rate or the ORGANIZED punching of Joe Louis (to catch Ali with a ripping combination of 4 punches and not let Ali recover). He doesn't have the consistent body punching of Joe Frazier to be able slow down Ali and get his head later. Frazier threw 1000+ punches and couldn't stop Ali. Ali has rough moments where Tyson rocks him but he wins a KO around round 10 with Tyson badly cut up and concussed but finishing gamely. Ali wins 8/10 times IMO. He outmaneuvers Mike Tyson who fails to come up with an adjustale strategy.
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Old 07-14-2007, 01:31 PM   #47
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Default Re: Ali v tyson

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Originally Posted by Duodenum
For three rounds, an aging and stale Larry Holmes, displaying considerable ring rust and difficulties with timing and accuracy, was able to nonetheless give Tyson a world of trouble with his greater height, reach, and cobweb shrouded jab.
No, no, no - don't go there. That's ridiculous. No loss to Larry - he was way past his best. However, Larry won at most maybe 1 MINUTE of the fight and that is because Tyson allowed him - he knew Larry was little threat (which he was at the time). I could be winning against George Foreman for 5 seconds till he sends me to Africa with his punch - that means nothing.

For my money, Joe Frazier did prove that is style is good for beating Ali. However, Joe Frazier and Mike Tyson - for all the semblances, are vastly different fighters. Patterson did not have the power, ferocity, or chin of Mike Tyson. Ali would definitely have a tougher (but shorter) night with Tyson than Patterson who was more game.
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Old 07-14-2007, 04:15 PM   #48
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Default Re: Ali v tyson

Quote:
Originally Posted by GazOC
That at a certain point, Tyson decides a fight is unwinnable a effectively gives up.

Fumbling for mouthpiece against Douglas instead of trying to get up
Ear biting agianst Holy
Looking to get KO'd against Lewis

He showed a similar trait in his last two defeats but I'll cut him some slack....


I think he'd get to that point with Ali.
Fumbling for his mouthpiece against Douglas was pretty heroic. He had just got hit with an uppercut that made Douglas' trainers look up because they thought Tysons head was going to fly off and had gotten beaten up for 10 rounds. Even still he doesn't lose desire when he is nearly unconcious.

He was messed up mentally against Holyfield. It wasn't the same Tyson.
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Old 07-14-2007, 05:04 PM   #49
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Default Re: Ali v tyson

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Originally Posted by fg2227
Been done million times, i was just wondering what the experts opinion is on this topic?
Douglas showed that a fast big man with a strong jab could beat Tyson ,who does that description resemble?
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Old 07-14-2007, 05:27 PM   #50
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Default Re: Ali v tyson

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Originally Posted by I Am Legend
he won 8 rounds against tillis

But you scored the 10th round of the Douglas fight 10-9 to Tyson too, so we'll ignore that '8 rounds'.
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Old 07-14-2007, 05:54 PM   #51
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Default Re: Ali v tyson

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Originally Posted by McGrain


Ding-ding round 1.

I pick Ali. I think Ali is one of the two or three fighters that Tyson has little hope against. Both have freakish reactions, but Ali has proved his at the highest level. I don't think he'll have a problem getting out of the way of Tyson's first shot most of the time, and this idea that Tyson can launch his second before Ali has scored with accuracy, is not serious.

In the case that Ali does get caught he has the neccesary chin to ride it out in my view. He is a great survivor and smart enough to manage. Meanwhile there is every chance that Tyson will become discouraged in the later rounds and sacrifice defence for aggression. If that happens then Tyson could be stopped - if he keeps his head Ali wins a pretty wide UD.

Well said...
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Old 07-14-2007, 06:24 PM   #52
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Default Re: Ali v tyson

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Originally Posted by I Am Legend
Referee: Joe Cortez | Judge: Bernie Friedkin 4-6 | Judge: Al Reid 4-6 | Judge: Tony Moret 2-8



Tillis was also knocked down in the fourth, He was battered around like a red headed step child but tyson detractors seem to think tillis was robbed or somehow dominated tyson.


So, 4-6 is the majority, not 2-8. So obviously you score every Tyson fight the same as the judge with the biggest margin towards Gay Mike. How sad.
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Old 07-14-2007, 06:34 PM   #53
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Default Re: Ali v tyson

Quote:
Originally Posted by hobgoblin
No, no, no - don't go there. That's ridiculous. No loss to Larry - he was way past his best. However, Larry won at most maybe 1 MINUTE of the fight and that is because Tyson allowed him - he knew Larry was little threat (which he was at the time). I could be winning against George Foreman for 5 seconds till he sends me to Africa with his punch - that means nothing.
Up until Holmes got floored during the 4th round against Tyson he was not winning the fight. However Holmes' experience was making life difficult for Tyson to get off with punches up until he got boomed. After 20 months of inactivity, father time as well, Holmes never had the stamina to keep moving with a high punch output at the same time. He was stricly focused on defense, until the start of the 4th round when he got on his toes and popped Tyson with some nice jabs.

Larry maybe only dominated Tyson for 1 minute, but Tyson hardly looked great up until he smashed him with the overhand right.
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Old 07-14-2007, 06:40 PM   #54
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Default Re: Ali v tyson

Holmes was mashed.
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Old 07-14-2007, 06:43 PM   #55
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Default Re: Ali v tyson

Quote:
Originally Posted by hobgoblin
No, no, no - don't go there. That's ridiculous. No loss to Larry - he was way past his best. However, Larry won at most maybe 1 MINUTE of the fight and that is because Tyson allowed him - he knew Larry was little threat (which he was at the time). I could be winning against George Foreman for 5 seconds till he sends me to Africa with his punch - that means nothing.

For my money, Joe Frazier did prove that is style is good for beating Ali. However, Joe Frazier and Mike Tyson - for all the semblances, are vastly different fighters. Patterson did not have the power, ferocity, or chin of Mike Tyson. Ali would definitely have a tougher (but shorter) night with Tyson than Patterson who was more game.
Don't worry hobgoblin-I was merely reeling from the shock of a pomogranate marguerita brainfreeze when I posted that disdainfully dismissive commentary. (You're the logistician here. My blissfully sotted self defers to your sober judgement. But in the condition I was enjoying, Tyson and Foreman would not have inflicted any hurting on me...until the next morning-hell, I'm headed there anyway!)
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Old 07-14-2007, 06:44 PM   #56
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Default Re: Ali v tyson

Don't worry mate, some of us 'get it'.
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Old 07-14-2007, 06:59 PM   #57
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Default Re: Ali v tyson

Quote:
Originally Posted by I Am Legend

Holmes was DESTROYED. He had a majority of his jabs slipped and his right hands had zero effect on tyson's chin, tyson was landing his jab throughout the first 3 rounds untill he timed the perfect right hand which obliterated holmes. Holmes could never beat tyson, He lacked the uppercut and inside fighting ability to even trouble tyson and his weakness to right hands made him an easy target.

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Tyson looked great during the first three rounds?. You maybe need to get your TV checked out, combined with a visit to your local opticians.

Holmes tied up Tyson whenever he wished, and moved laterally which never let him get set for his power punches. Tyson was trying to get Holmes into those spots where he could get off, but Holmes experience and ring generalship were causing Tyson problems. Great finish, no question about it.

Look above at the clip, and tell me if your man Tyson ever got up off the floor to win. I'll awnser that for you. Nope, he did not. Holmes on the otherhand did, and from devastating knockdowns as well it must be said.

Douglas, Holyfield, Lewis, Williams, McBride. All knocked Tyson down, and he was also stopped inside the distance on every occassion as well.

And don't give me the nonsense about Tyson being past his best, especially against Lewis, Williams, and McBride. Because thats part of being a great fighter, turning possible defeats into wins when past your prime. I will give Tyson the benefit of the doubt to a certain extent, as he clearly was past his best in those fights, but he simply never had two things, the ability to come back from adversity and self belief.
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Old 07-14-2007, 07:46 PM   #58
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Default Re: Ali v tyson

Quote:
Originally Posted by I Am Legend
Maybe it's because he was REDICULOUSLY FAR PAST HIS BEST?


Ali sucks, he lost his legacy fights against berbick and holmes. dont give me that "he was past his best nonsense" Part of being great is truning possible defeats into wins when past your prime.
Ali had done enough up until he fought Holmes and Berbick though, know what I mean?. Your a Tyson nuthugger, so you probably don't realise exactly what I mean.

He had beaten Liston, Frazier twice, Foreman, Norton twice, and came back to win his rematch against Spinks at the age of 36 while past his prime, and other decent heavyweight challengers during his era. He regained the title three times, and fought and beat much better oppostion than Tyson.

"Part of being a great fighter is turning possible defeats into wins". Ali achieved this while in his prime, and even when past his prime. He got up off the floor to stop Cooper in the very next round, beat two of the best punchers in heavyweight history, Liston and Foreman against the odds.

Thats the difference sucker. If you want to twist it further and hide behind the facts, go ahead.
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Old 07-14-2007, 07:49 PM   #59
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Default Re: Ali v tyson

Quote:
Originally Posted by Robbi
Tyson looked great during the first three rounds?. You maybe need to get your TV checked out, combined with a visit to your local opticians.

Holmes tied up Tyson whenever he wished, and moved laterally which never let him get set for his power punches. Tyson was trying to get Holmes into those spots where he could get off, but Holmes experience and ring generalship were causing Tyson problems. Great finish, no question about it.

Look above at the clip, and tell me if your man Tyson ever got up off the floor to win. I'll awnser that for you. Nope, he did not. Holmes on the otherhand did, and from devastating knockdowns as well it must be said.

Douglas, Holyfield, Lewis, Williams, McBride. All knocked Tyson down, and he was also stopped inside the distance on every occassion as well.

And don't give me the nonsense about Tyson being past his best, especially against Lewis, Williams, and McBride. Because thats part of being a great fighter, turning possible defeats into wins when past your prime. I will give Tyson the benefit of the doubt to a certain extent, as he clearly was past his best in those fights, but he simply never had two things, the ability to come back from adversity and self belief.
Since when is it a criteria that you have to get off the floor to be a great fighter. Time and time again I've always put more stock in guys who dont hit the floor at all.

For you a great fighter NEEDS to struggle, needs to get hurt only to come back and win as though boxing is some sort of rocky movie.

To me boxing is a sport. I embrace perfection whereas you embrace imperfection.

To me Mayweather's win over Corrales is more impressive than Corrales's win over Castillo.

Chico's win was more dramatic but in terms of his performance I think PBF's dominant performance deserves more praise.

I should add that Ali (at the time Clay) may have gotten up from the knockdown against Cooper and stopped him in the next round. But for me the obvious question is; "why the **** was he on the floor in the first place?"
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Old 07-14-2007, 07:50 PM   #60
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Default Re: Ali v tyson

Quote:
Originally Posted by Robbi
Ali had done enough up until he fought Holmes and Berbick though, know what I mean?. Your a Tyson nuthugger, so you probably don't realise exactly what I mean.

He had beaten Liston, Frazier twice, Foreman, Norton twice, and came back to win his rematch against Spinks at the age of 36 while past his prime, and other decent heavyweight challengers during his era. He regained the title three times, and fought and beat much better oppostion than Tyson.

"Part of being a great fighter is turning possible defeats into wins". Ali achieved this while in his prime, and even when past his prime. He got up off the floor to stop Cooper in the very next round, beat two of the best punchers in heavyweight history, Liston and Foreman against the odds.

Thats the difference sucker. If you want to twist it further and hide behind the facts, go ahead.
Mike Tyson never won a fight, he was'nt suppose to win, or was'nt favourite for.

Lennox Lewis ended the myth, but some people still believe the bullshit.
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