Boxing  

Forum Home Boxing Forum European British Classic Aussie MMA Training
Go Back   Boxing News 24 Forum > Boxing > Classic Boxing Forum


Reply
 
Thread Tools
Old 07-16-2007, 10:19 AM   #61
McGrain
Diamond Dog
East Side VIP
 
Join Date: Mar 2007
Posts: 37,427
vCash: 1000
Default Re: Who is the most underated fighter on this forum

Quote:
Originally Posted by Manassa
Seriously though, who is underrating Leonard? Rooster and Hank, both of whom are ridiculed. It's not a big deal.
I think the point is; people are suspicios of Leonard (i feel that way) and dislike him (for whatever reason). This leads them to place him lower than he ought to be in a very general sense (but not me chum).
McGrain is online now  Top
Reply With Quote
Sponsored Links
Old 07-16-2007, 10:26 AM   #62
Manassa
-
ESB Addict
 
Join Date: Apr 2007
Location: ESB since '05
Posts: 3,883
vCash: 75
Default Re: Who is the most underated fighter on this forum

Well I can't remember anyone underrating Leonard, but then again I haven't been here much for three weeks.
Manassa is offline  Top
Reply With Quote
Old 07-16-2007, 10:38 AM   #63
Vantage_West
ヒップホッププロデューサー
East Side VIP
 
Join Date: Jul 2006
Location: 黒人文化の恋人のサンプリ
Posts: 10,027
vCash: 1000
Default Re: Who is the most underated fighter on this forum

Quote:
Originally Posted by jhar26
Felix Trinidad. If he had retired after the Joppy fight we would now be discussing his ATG-ness.
when he was at middlewieght he lost everything that got him there speed combo's jab he was only a left hooker...a real shame
Vantage_West is offline  Top
Reply With Quote
Old 07-16-2007, 10:47 AM   #64
sweet_scientist
Champion
East Side Guru
 
Join Date: Nov 2004
Posts: 6,870
vCash: 1000
Default Re: Who is the most underated fighter on this forum

Quote:
Originally Posted by Seamus
Ok, I think Leonard was one hell of a fighter, combing skill and grit, but he is hardly under-rated. Everyone with a skull on his shoulders knows he was a great fighter.

Julio Cesar Vasquezzis my example of an under-rated fighter. I watched fifth row and center as he pounded Winky Wright to the floor over and over again. I also thought the Sweat Pea fight was a sham, as JC was leading according to my and Gil Clancy's card going into the 10th but somehow powerpuching and ring generalship didn't count by the wide margin for the pitty-pat artist Whitaker. If JCV had faced Terry Norris- prime for prime as they both coincided- he would have put him through the canvas.
So do you think Vasquez won that fight?

How about mentioning how Gil Clancy had Whitaker winning the fight even WITHOUT the two points that were deducted from Vasquez for hitting behind the head?
sweet_scientist is offline  Top
Reply With Quote
Old 07-16-2007, 10:58 AM   #65
Robbi
Marvelous
East Side Guru
 
Join Date: Jul 2004
Location: UK
Posts: 7,550
vCash: 1000
Default Re: Who is the most underated fighter on this forum

Quote:
Originally Posted by Manassa
Whitaker boxed excellently against Nelson and Ramirez, and Chavez, but here is my gripe:



I don't think he did. Whitaker was quick, but Leonard had that extreme top-five-all-time speed, both of hand and foot. He was a dancer in the Ali mould, a spearing, rangy fighter - at least when he boxed Duran in that fateful rematch. Whitaker could move, but not in the same way. He slid like a snake and occasionally ran or hopped back out of distance, but he didn't dance and glide like Leonard. His jab was a piston, rather than a whip and he wasn't as rangy either. These aren't necessarily bad things regarding Whitaker in general as a fighter because he was better than Leonard in other areas, but he lacked the tools needed to beat Duran, who would be all over him like a rash. Even if he only got close occasionally, as I said before - I'm not even sure Whitaker would have the best of it on the outside. Duran was quick and clever. Of course, I would never assume Duran would have his way completely with Whitaker on the inside as the latter was a quality fighter at that range too, but Duran would be the dominant force - too much of a strength-power-skill balance for Whitaker to handle. The decision would be close, but Duran wins.
Maybe you need to re-watch Whitaker against Ramirez I. Whitaker's movement was constant, and in a similar manner to Leonard's against Duran. If you watch Leonard against Duran in New Orleans, his punch out-put was not very high. He threw about 10-15 jabs maximum during each round, spanked Duran with a right hand lead, and kept his distance. Very seldom did Leonard throw 3-4 punch combinations. Leonard's balance throughout the fight was much more defensive than offensive. He boxed a smart fight and made Duran miss, then made him pay, but not very busy.

Whitaker has the style to move like Leonard and keep things cute, he'd have a higher jab out-put as well. Especially going on the evidence of Whitaker's jab activity against Ramirez during their first fight when he fought in a similar fashion to Leonard in New Orleans.

But its the Nelson fight which impresses me most in my arguement. He revealed much more weapons combined with superb ring generalship. Ramirez I was a jab exclusive show.

Leonard was never as effective as Whitaker while going backwards. If you watch Leonard's rematch with Duran, he moves constantly and boxes, but he steps in with punches. He's stationary when letting power punches go, and while circling and moving he's getting off with the jab. Whitaker could do all that, but he could also box effectively while moving backwards at the same time. Mind, I don't mean side to side movement while scoring with the jab, I mean going backwards.
Robbi is offline  Top
Reply With Quote
Old 07-16-2007, 11:10 AM   #66
Manassa
-
ESB Addict
 
Join Date: Apr 2007
Location: ESB since '05
Posts: 3,883
vCash: 75
Default Re: Who is the most underated fighter on this forum

You talk about workrate - Whitaker's higher output would not necessarily bode well for him. It means he would be more stationary and offering Duran more chances to counter punch. Leonard, by only throwing the occasional punch and concentrating more on defending himself he was not letting Duran do what he wanted to do, and that was dish out the damage. Again; Whitaker was slower than Leonard; speed was a big factor in the Duran rematch.

But anyway, that's irrelevant. The peak lightweight Duran of around '78 was a far better fighter than the drained version who quit against Leonard. But I suppose we'll agree to disagree.
Manassa is offline  Top
Reply With Quote
Old 07-16-2007, 11:33 AM   #67
Robbi
Marvelous
East Side Guru
 
Join Date: Jul 2004
Location: UK
Posts: 7,550
vCash: 1000
Default Re: Who is the most underated fighter on this forum

Quote:
Originally Posted by Manassa
You talk about workrate - Whitaker's higher output would not necessarily bode well for him. It means he would be more stationary and offering Duran more chances to counter punch. Leonard, by only throwing the occasional punch and concentrating more on defending himself he was not letting Duran do what he wanted to do, and that was dish out the damage. Again; Whitaker was slower than Leonard; speed was a big factor in the Duran rematch.

But anyway, that's irrelevant. The peak lightweight Duran of around '78 was a far better fighter than the drained version who quit against Leonard. But I suppose we'll agree to disagree.
I think you missed my point entirely, or simply not taking my points into consideration. Whitaker was clearly much more effective than Leonard while moving away from an opponent. Whitaker could score while on the move backwards with the jab as his opponent is advancing. Leonard on the otherhand never done this against Duran, and when he was authorative with his work it was by stepping in with power punches. And when boxing effectively and scoring, he was moving side-to-side, not going backwards.

"It means he would be more stationary and offering Duran more chanes to counter punch". Whitaker's high workrate would bolde well for him. His high workrate doesn't just means standing and exchanging and becoming a stationary target, encouraging Duran's counter punching and heavy weaponry. I mean high punch output mainly in terms on jab activity, as I explained with his performance against Ramirez, when he was constantly on the move at distance, in a similar fashion to Leonard.

The peak Duran of the late 70's was a far better version than the one who quit against Leonard. I beat you to that one, as I stated this a couple posts ago. This is Duran v Whitaker at lightweight anyway, not welterweight. Im using his showing in the rematch with Leoanrd as a guage.

Last edited by Robbi; 07-16-2007 at 12:47 PM.
Robbi is offline  Top
Reply With Quote
Old 07-16-2007, 11:46 AM   #68
Manassa
-
ESB Addict
 
Join Date: Apr 2007
Location: ESB since '05
Posts: 3,883
vCash: 75
Default Re: Who is the most underated fighter on this forum

I'll reply in a while.
Manassa is offline  Top
Reply With Quote
Old 07-16-2007, 12:52 PM   #69
Robbi
Marvelous
East Side Guru
 
Join Date: Jul 2004
Location: UK
Posts: 7,550
vCash: 1000
Default Re: Who is the most underated fighter on this forum

Quote:
Originally Posted by Manassa
I'll reply in a while.
We both make valid points. One thing is written in stone, Whitaker beats Duran at lightweight in my eyes, and roles reversed with yourself.
Robbi is offline  Top
Reply With Quote
Old 07-16-2007, 01:14 PM   #70
Minotauro
Belt holder
ESB Addict
 
Join Date: May 2007
Location: London
Posts: 2,495
vCash: 1000
Default Re: Who is the most underated fighter on this forum

The Barbados Demon Joe Walcott the guys achievements are amazing and yet I rarely see him mentioned when ppl talk about the "greats". Nat Fleischer described him as the greatest welterweight ever and he was the idol of Jersey Joe Walcott who regards him as the greatest pound 4-pound fighter alongside Ray Robinson.
Minotauro is offline  Top
Reply With Quote
Old 07-16-2007, 01:18 PM   #71
Manassa
-
ESB Addict
 
Join Date: Apr 2007
Location: ESB since '05
Posts: 3,883
vCash: 75
Default Re: Who is the most underated fighter on this forum

Quote:
Originally Posted by Robbi
I think you missed my point entirely, or simply not taking my points into consideration. Whitaker was clearly much more effective than Leonard while moving away from an opponent. Whitaker could score while on the move backwards with the jab as his opponent is advancing. Leonard on the otherhand never done this against Duran, and when he was authorative with his work it was by stepping in with power punches. And when boxing effectively and scoring, he was moving side-to-side, not going backwards.

"It means he would be more stationary and offering Duran more chanes to counter punch". Whitaker's high workrate would bolde well for him. His high workrate doesn't just means standing and exchanging and becoming a stationary target, encouraging Duran's counter punching and heavy weaponry. I mean high punch output mainly in terms on jab activity, as I explained with his performance against Ramirez, when he was constantly on the move at distance, in a similar fashion to Leonard.

The peak Duran of the late 70's was a far better version than the one who quit against Leonard. I beat you to that one, as I stated this a couple posts ago. This is Duran v Whitaker at lightweight anyway, not welterweight. Im using his showing in the rematch with Leoanrd as a guage.
You addressed everything except the speed factor. Leonard was faster with both hands and feet than Whitaker, and was more mobile, even though you think Whitaker could match him there.
Manassa is offline  Top
Reply With Quote
Old 07-16-2007, 01:39 PM   #72
Robbi
Marvelous
East Side Guru
 
Join Date: Jul 2004
Location: UK
Posts: 7,550
vCash: 1000
Default Re: Who is the most underated fighter on this forum

Quote:
Originally Posted by Manassa
You addressed everything except the speed factor. Leonard was faster with both hands and feet than Whitaker, and was more mobile, even though you think Whitaker could match him there.
Leonard was quicker than Whitaker with his hands, but never had the same variety regarding defense. Whitaker was just as quick with his movement at lightweight, although you could argue either way.

Duran at lightweight never faced anyone quite like Whitaker. Buchanan and De Jesus were decent operators, but not anywhere near Whitaker's ballpark.

I will freely admit, Whitaker never shared a ring with an opponent of Duran's calibre either.
Robbi is offline  Top
Reply With Quote
Old 07-16-2007, 02:44 PM   #73
Mantequilla
Belt holder
ESB Addict
 
Join Date: Aug 2004
Posts: 2,482
vCash: 1000
Default Re: Who is the most underated fighter on this forum

IMO the best pure boxers will almost always lose to the cream of the boxer-punchers.

It's simply an inherently inferior and less efficient and balanced way of fighting, even though pure-boxers are some of my favourite fighters.

Nicolino Locche for example is a great example of a defensive specialist with almost nothing else going for him.Whitaker not quite as one dimensional as that of course, but he doesn't compare to the truly great boxer-punchers, especially if the boxer-puncher has a steady jab(which admittedly Duran did not).

For instance for all their undoubted flair, someone like Whitaker or Canto will rarely ever outbox one of the Sugar Ray's or a Harold Johnson, masao ohba or John Conteh type fighter.They don't have the offense for it and if the jab is equalled or taken away like Leonard did with Benitez then that's it.THe superior variety of leads that the boxer puncher has(with more aggressive mindset in place to use them)inevitably carries the day.

A good example of how Duran vs Whitaker would play out imo is the first Hilario Zapata vs Jung-Koo Chang fight where Hilario gets a gift decision ina tough fight.Very similar styles at play there.

I could see Whitaker beating Duran perhaps once, but over a series of fights i'm fairly certain he doesn't have enough depth to his game to win.The master box-puncher would prevail, albeit not easily

Last edited by Mantequilla; 07-16-2007 at 03:02 PM.
Mantequilla is offline  Top
Reply With Quote
Old 07-16-2007, 04:34 PM   #74
Manassa
-
ESB Addict
 
Join Date: Apr 2007
Location: ESB since '05
Posts: 3,883
vCash: 75
Default Re: Who is the most underated fighter on this forum

Quote:
Originally Posted by Sweet Pea
I think I agree with Robbi because it comes down to what you were arguing Manassa, I don't think Duran does as well as you say from the outside. I think in the inside it's close but advantage Duran, on the outside it's close but advantage Whitaker. Close call, but I doubt most of this fight would be taking place on the inside, so I'd give a slight advantage to Whitaker again.

This matchup has taken so many turns with me. At first I thought surely Whitaker outboxes him like he did Chavez. After watching more Duran I realized he was nothing like Chavez and honestly turned my opinion to Duran and admitted that he would win. After more revue, I had them stalemated again, and now I go slightly back to Whitaker. Close call for sure.
No need for a return argument from me then, I'll simply wait until next month when you lean towards Duran
Manassa is offline  Top
Reply With Quote
Old 07-17-2007, 01:11 AM   #75
sweet_scientist
Champion
East Side Guru
 
Join Date: Nov 2004
Posts: 6,870
vCash: 1000
Default Re: Who is the most underated fighter on this forum

Quote:
Originally Posted by Mantequilla
IMO the best pure boxers will almost always lose to the cream of the boxer-punchers.

It's simply an inherently inferior and less efficient and balanced way of fighting, even though pure-boxers are some of my favourite fighters.

Nicolino Locche for example is a great example of a defensive specialist with almost nothing else going for him.Whitaker not quite as one dimensional as that of course, but he doesn't compare to the truly great boxer-punchers, especially if the boxer-puncher has a steady jab(which admittedly Duran did not).

For instance for all their undoubted flair, someone like Whitaker or Canto will rarely ever outbox one of the Sugar Ray's or a Harold Johnson, masao ohba or John Conteh type fighter.They don't have the offense for it and if the jab is equalled or taken away like Leonard did with Benitez then that's it.THe superior variety of leads that the boxer puncher has(with more aggressive mindset in place to use them)inevitably carries the day.

A good example of how Duran vs Whitaker would play out imo is the first Hilario Zapata vs Jung-Koo Chang fight where Hilario gets a gift decision ina tough fight.Very similar styles at play there.

I could see Whitaker beating Duran perhaps once, but over a series of fights i'm fairly certain he doesn't have enough depth to his game to win.The master box-puncher would prevail, albeit not easily
This is a very good post. Whilst I think it's better to deal with each match up on its own terms, as a general point of view I think you are correct.

I was thinking of Willie Pep and Sandy Saddler as well when reading your post. IMO it didn't matter when Pep fought Saddler, it would always be a nightmare for Pep to beat him.

Whitaker might pull off one masterpiece in a series with Duran where he outboxes him and wins a decision, but most likely he will find himself being overwhelmed and dropping 9-6 type decisions.
sweet_scientist is offline  Top
Reply With Quote
Reply

Boxing News 24 Forum > Boxing > Classic Boxing Forum

Thread Tools

Posting Rules
You may not post new threads
You may not post replies
You may not post attachments
You may not edit your posts

BB code is On
Smilies are On
[IMG] code is Off
HTML code is Off

Forum Jump





All times are GMT -4. The time now is 12:10 PM.


Powered by vBulletin® Version 3.8.0
Copyright ©2000 - 2014, Jelsoft Enterprises Ltd.
Boxing News 24 Forum 2013