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Old 04-04-2008, 10:04 AM   #16
janitor
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Default Re: Lennox Lewis vs Jack Dempsey

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Originally Posted by Stonehands89
...Lewis wasn't of those oversized Heavingweights with rolls of fat on his waist. He wasn't Carl Morris or Jess Willard. He was huge and powerful and had decent speed. His chin was good enough for him to last long enough to stop Dempsey.

That's about all there is. Too big, too dangerous. Dempsey was a cruiser.
You start by criticising other people for comparing Lewis to Willard Morris etc but then commit the same sin by calling Dempsey a cruiser.

If he was then he was the cruiser.

This is not Wayne Braithwaite we are talking about.
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Old 04-04-2008, 10:08 AM   #17
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Default Re: Lennox Lewis vs Jack Dempsey

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Originally Posted by janitor

If he was then he was the cruiser.
I'll opt for Marciano meself.
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Old 04-04-2008, 10:14 AM   #18
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Default Re: Lennox Lewis vs Jack Dempsey

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Originally Posted by janitor
Its not like I am picking Lewis on his worst night here and holding it up as an example of hoe Dempsey could beat him.

I am taking him in arguably his career best win. Now Hollyfield was good at everything but great at nothing in particular. Dempsey was good at everything and great at most of them.

Therfore I think he would bring a whole new box of tricks for Lewis to solve.
You left out one very important factor though. Could Dempsey take Lewis's power for an extended period the way Holyfield did? Evander Holyfield was 215 Lbs against Lewis, and all of it was muscle. Additionally, he had tested his chin numerous times against some serious modern day big men who could really punch. I'm not so sure Dempsey could hang in there with Lewis too long truthfully. He would also have to contend with a big man who could really move, jab, box, fight well off the back foot, and had reasonable defense. Big Bill Tate and Jess Willard hardly fit this description in my opinion.

Once again, I don't always feel that size is everything, but in this case it definately matters. We are talking about taking a small all time great heavyweight vs a very large all time great heavyweight. This is not a matchup between an elite little guy and a big journeyman. There is a collosal difference, and one that people seem to forget when making these matchups.
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Old 04-04-2008, 10:42 AM   #19
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Default Re: Lennox Lewis vs Jack Dempsey

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Originally Posted by mr. magoo
You left out one very important factor though. Could Dempsey take Lewis's power for an extended period the way Holyfield did? Evander Holyfield was 215 Lbs against Lewis, and all of it was muscle.
Building muscle is going to ad something to durability but I dont think that the cruiserweight Hollyfield would exactly get steamrolled by Lewis.

Quote:
Additionally, he had tested his chin numerous times against some serious modern day big men who could really punch. I'm not so sure Dempsey could hang in there with Lewis too long truthfully.
Dempseys chin is prety thoroughly tested but as you say he tended not to let people hang around long enough to test it over the duration of a fight so there are questions there.

I dont think that Dempsey was as easy to hit as Hollyfield and I think there are greater issues about Lewis's ability to take Dempseys shots overall.

Quote:
He would also have to contend with a big man who could really move, jab, box, fight well off the back foot, and had reasonable defense. Big Bill Tate and Jess Willard hardly fit this description in my opinion.
Big Bill Tate was prety mobile and had a good jab though of course it he was only a sparring partner. Fred Fulton probably fits the bill but again he wasnt alowed to hang around long enough for us to find out.

The main issue in this from Lennox'x point of view is Dempseys finishing ability. This really is a guy you couldnt aford to make a single mistake against. Lewis's chin is in my opinion underrated but if anybody is going to capitalize on it it is going to be Dempsey.
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Old 04-04-2008, 10:43 AM   #20
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Default Re: Lennox Lewis vs Jack Dempsey

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Originally Posted by JohnThomas1
I'll opt for Marciano meself.
Dose Marciano strike you as poetry in motion?
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Old 04-04-2008, 10:45 AM   #21
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Default Re: Lennox Lewis vs Jack Dempsey

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Originally Posted by janitor

Now Hollyfield was good at everything but great at nothing in particular. Dempsey was good at everything and great at most of them.
I think you are selling Holyfield short here.

First of all, he was great at taking a punch. He fought Bowe 3 times, Lewis 2 times, Tyson 2, Moorer 2 times, Mercer, etc etc yet none of them managed to stop him legitimately. Both his stoppages against Toney and Bowe III aren't really chin-related.

This is what kept him in the fight against Lewis (and Bowe+Tyson, for that matter). No normal heavyweight should've remained on his feet after some of the uppercuts he ate against Lewis. Or the punches he took from Tyson in the 5th. Or that barrage in the 10th against Bowe, first fight. His durability was incredible.


Second, he was great at counterpunching (he did it to Tyson all night long), knocked out Douglas with it, drove Foreman crazy with it, etc etc.

His heart is also second to none.
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Old 04-04-2008, 10:48 AM   #22
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Default Re: Lennox Lewis vs Jack Dempsey

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Originally Posted by janitor
Dose Marciano strike you as poetry in motion?

Poetry in motion, nope. More effective, efficient and harder to beat, absolutely.
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Old 04-04-2008, 10:48 AM   #23
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Default Re: Lennox Lewis vs Jack Dempsey

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Originally Posted by janitor
Dose Marciano strike you as poetry in motion?
Neither do, that's for sure, not that it matters as poetry in motion doesn't neccessarily = effectiveness. You should know that Marciano's unbelievable effectiveness belied his seeming ungainliness. There's been many a fighter cruising along looking like poetry in motion only to be left on their back with their eyes closed on the floor, dunlop logo in full view.
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Old 04-04-2008, 10:57 AM   #24
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Default Re: Lennox Lewis vs Jack Dempsey

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Poetry in motion, nope. More effective, efficient and harder to beat, absolutely.
More effeective?

I guess you could make the case.

More efficient?

Are you out of your mind?
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Old 04-04-2008, 10:58 AM   #25
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Default Re: Lennox Lewis vs Jack Dempsey

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Originally Posted by JohnThomas1
Neither do,
If you cant apreciate Dempseys finesse then you are a philastine and should be horse whipped.
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Old 04-04-2008, 10:59 AM   #26
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Default Re: Lennox Lewis vs Jack Dempsey

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Originally Posted by ChrisPontius
I think you are selling Holyfield short here.

First of all, he was great at taking a punch. He fought Bowe 3 times, Lewis 2 times, Tyson 2, Moorer 2 times, Mercer, etc etc yet none of them managed to stop him legitimately. Both his stoppages against Toney and Bowe III aren't really chin-related.

This is what kept him in the fight against Lewis (and Bowe+Tyson, for that matter). No normal heavyweight should've remained on his feet after some of the uppercuts he ate against Lewis. Or the punches he took from Tyson in the 5th. Or that barrage in the 10th against Bowe, first fight. His durability was incredible.


Second, he was great at counterpunching (he did it to Tyson all night long), knocked out Douglas with it, drove Foreman crazy with it, etc etc.

His heart is also second to none.
All fair observations but you see my general point.

Hollyfield was always more sweat and grit than natural talent.
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Old 04-04-2008, 11:01 AM   #27
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Default Re: Lennox Lewis vs Jack Dempsey

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Originally Posted by janitor


Dempseys chin is prety thoroughly tested but as you say he tended not to let people hang around long enough to test it over the duration of a fight so there are questions there.
I actually doubt this.


Against which punchers did Dempsey have his chin tested?

The best punchers he faced were Fulton, Willard and Firpo.

Fulton last about as long as Ruiz did against Tua. Willard didn't land much either. Only Firpo of those landed, and he knocked Dempsey down twice.

On top of that, Carpentier (LHW) stunned him andTunney (LHW) knocked him down.

Frankly i think his chin is less tested than most linear heavyweight champions in history. Of course, as you say, the fact that he blasted a lot of guys out early had a lot to do with that, but still.


If he had to fight Briggs, Bruno, Klitschko, Tyson, Golota, Akinwande, Ruddock, Morrison, Tua, McCall twice, Holyfield twice, Mason, Rahman twice and only suffer one knockdown and one knockout, i'd be surprised.
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Old 04-04-2008, 11:12 AM   #28
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Default Re: Lennox Lewis vs Jack Dempsey

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Originally Posted by janitor
More effeective?

I guess you could make the case.

More efficient?

Are you out of your mind?
I've got stories from guys a helluva lot more knowledgable than both you and i saying Marciano had a better defence than Dempsey. Given you guys try to tell us he is the heavyweight equivalent of Duran (or was it Pep) or better i always get a fair chuckle.
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Old 04-04-2008, 11:32 AM   #29
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Default Re: Lennox Lewis vs Jack Dempsey

Oh, God...not again...
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Old 04-04-2008, 11:38 AM   #30
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Default Re: Lennox Lewis vs Jack Dempsey

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I've got stories from guys a helluva lot more knowledgable than both you and i saying Marciano had a better defence than Dempsey.
Seriously?
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