Muhammad Ali's management VERY SMART

I dont think Futch is discrediting Ali's record, he's just crediting Ali's managers for not making too many mistakes.

He goes on to say "The biggest mistake they made was with Ken Norton".

Almost all great fighters had shrewd managers. Sure, they beat tough fighters, and good versions of them. But it would be foolish to put your fighter in with men at the absolute top of their game, fight after fight, no matter how great your fighter is.

[Addie]

If the point of this thread isn't to discredit Ali, then what is the point of the thread?

Is it to point out that Ali had a lot of fights before he took his big test? That's how boxing operates.

No real point even mentioning it.

[Bokaj]

Originally Posted by Sonny's jab

I dont think Futch is discrediting Ali's record, he's just crediting Ali's managers for not making too many mistakes.

When he says: "... they generally chose fighters who were too old or too slow and never at their peak", I think he is discrediting Ali by making it sound like he rarely fought good opposition.

With the exception of Williams and to some extent Folley all of Ali's bigger name opponents were in their prime or close to it when Ali fought them, so I think that he is very incorrect to say that. Ali fought just about everyone there was to fight, something which can't entirely be said about Futch's own protogé, Frazier, who didn't fight Lyle or Shavers in the later part of his career for example.

[Addie]

Originally Posted by Bokaj

When he says: "... they generally chose fighters who were too old or too slow and never at their peak", I think he is discrediting Ali by making it sound like he rarely fought good opposition.

With the exception of Williams and to some extent Folley all of Ali's bigger name opponents were in their prime or close to it when Ali fought them, so I think that he is very incorrect to say that. Ali fought just about everyone there was to fight, something which can't entirely be said about Futch's own protogé, Frazier, who didn't fight Lyle or Shavers in the later part of his career for example.

Excellent post.

[ron u.k.]

like i've mentioned in an earlier post if you look at ali's record there's not an opponent with a losing record,and that includes all his early fights,which i would have thought was pretty unusual.i would suspect that ali's early career opponents were as tough as any other future heavyweight champ.

[Bokaj]

For me he has the most solid record of any HW. But if he had had idiots for managers who matched him up against the likes of Machen, Folley and Williams in 1961-62 already, his career might of course have turned out differently. But maybe not; an 18-year old Clay did after all make Ingemar Johansson look foolish in sparring...

[punchy]

It would have been obvious what a great talent Ali was from an early age, it would have been stupid to not nurture him properly.

[ThinBlack]

Doug Jones almost beat Clay, and, from my understanding, Billy Daniels was a top up at the stoppage, so they weren't exactly protecting him.

[Senor Pepe']

Originally Posted by Bokaj

For me he has the most solid record of any HW. But if he had had idiots for managers who matched him up against the likes of Machen, Folley and Williams in 1961-62 already, his career might of course have turned out differently. But maybe not; an 18-year old Clay did after all make Ingemar Johansson look foolish in sparring...

Bokaj,,,,

You know that sparring session with Ingemar Johansson was part
of a publicity photo session.

It was 100% staged for the local television stations.

The 'staged' sparring session took place in Miami Beach, a couple of days before a young Cassius Clay
was to fight Donnie Fleeman at the Auditorium (Tuesday, February 21, 1961).

Ingo also sparred with undefeated Miami Beach Light-heavyweight Otha Brown, in another
staged sparrring session.

The 'stock footage' was distributed to the local Television Stations to help stir up interest in the fight.
It was nothing more than a 'promotional tool'.

A few weeks later (March 13, 1961) Ingo took on Floyd Patterson at Convention Hall for the Heavyweight
Championship, in their 3rd bout together.

[johnmaff36]

Correct me if im wrong but isnt that what good management is SUPPOSED to do

[Ren]

Thats the way a fighter should be managed, tbh.


What one should ba asking is why all fighters dont steadily increase opposition on their way up, some get a golden handshake, a leg up or a backdoor for no real reason sometimes.

[frankenfrank]

Originally Posted by SuzieQ49

I was studying his early career lately and noticed how well protected he was, for his own good on the way up. Ali's management all he way up to liston guided his pro career perfectly, throwing him in against good but not dangerous world class fighters that could potentially upset him. They wanted to bring up young Clay up systematically, They wanted to test his incredible talent vs good fighters but not risk him getting beat or becoming damaged goods. So they threw him in against good lowly ranked contenders, but guys that they kn ew Ali would beat and improve Guys like 6'4 Billy Daniels, 6'4 212lb Alejandro Lavorante, Alex Miteff, Sonny Banks, 152 year old Archie moore were all ranked good fighters and all presented a new stylistica matchup for him, but his management knew no matter they didnt threaten to beat him and Ali would get valuable experience fighting these guys before they threw him in vs Red Meat. The best fighter Ali probably beat pre title was 45 year old Archie Moore who was ranked high and still a dangerous puncher, but they knew Alis speed youthness would be way too much for Archie at his advanced age. when they threw Ali in his first against a top notch young boxer, Ali struggled valiently against jones but gained valuable experience. They were also smart that when Ali suffered his first real punchers test, when he got clocked by a henry cooper left hook, it was henry cooper in ther and not a cleveland williams. So Ali could always dance his way out of there if he got in major trouble. They wanted Ali to gain valuable experience fighting good but not world class fighters, so that as ali continued to mature he would be ready to handle those world class styles when the time was right. Dundee was smart turning down offers from harold johnson and eddie machen.

With Cassius prolific amataur career they could have easily thrown hi against the wolves early. I think had they tried to take on the world class fighters in the early 1960s like harold johnson, machen, folley, williams, johannson, Terell, he would have beat alot of these guys, but he might have been upset 1 or 2 times and certainly been damaged goods early in his career.

bumped out of d twilight zone . A good post by SuzieQ (!!!!) 1 of his very few 4 sure , probably his best ever .
But i consider Doug Jones on d same level as Machen & Johnson despite losing decisions 2 them . I watched Johnson vs Jones and while i can c y it was scored in favor of Johnson , Jones was d aggressor throughout and wasn't hurt in d fight , so it's only significance is that they fought 4 15 , and survived each other with neither man getting 2 hurt . From what i read Machen overpowered Jones due 2 his size advantage but again , it was a decision win . Johnson was stopped by Archie Wright and i think that Jones would not have been stopped by Wright even 1 in 5 times , not 2 mention that he probably should b given a better chance 2 actually stop d stoppable Wright .
Jones was only stopped by bigger stronger men and even not by all of them .

[Senor Pepe']

Actually, Cassius Clay's management team was brilliant.

The Louisville Sponsoring Group (11 Louisville businessman)

All were millionaires, with connections.

Led by, William Faversham Jr.

Does anybody really think that they would let anything happen to their
'Golden Goose'.

see the Sonny Liston fights,,,,,,,

[Asterion]

He wasn't overprotected. His management just did intelligent moves, especially in the first part of his career.

[johnmaff36]

Originally Posted by Senor Pepe'

Actually, Cassius Clay's management team was brilliant.

The Louisville Sponsoring Group (11 Louisville businessman)

All were millionaires, with connections.

Led by, William Faversham Jr.

Does anybody really think that they would let anything happen to their
'Golden Goose'.

see the Sonny Liston fights,,,,,,,

Agreed SP.

As, too, was the Cloverlay group for smokin joe but i guess we aint gonna get a thread about that