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Old 07-15-2007, 02:32 PM   #1
Robbi
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Default Holmes or Louis against prime Ali.

Ive not started a thread for a while, so thought I may as well.

My question to everyone. Could a prime Joe Louis beat a prime Ali, and could a prime Larry Holmes beat the "greatest" at his best as well?.

If you decided neither Louis or Holmes would beat a prime Ali, who has the best chance of giving Ali the most problems?.



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Old 07-15-2007, 03:14 PM   #2
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Default Re: Holmes or Louis against prime Ali.

Larry Holmes has the best shot at pulling off the upset. His jab would be something Ali never confronted before. He would be the most technically skilled boxer Ali ever met. He was fast and could move well. He had a solid chin and great recuperative powers.
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Old 07-15-2007, 03:21 PM   #3
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Default Re: Holmes or Louis against prime Ali.

Quote:
Originally Posted by Robbi
My question to everyone. Could a prime Joe Louis beat a prime Ali, and could a prime Larry Holmes beat the "greatest" at his best as well?.
The answer is an emphatic yes.

They could also both loose to him.

Both Louis and Holmes have too many tools to rule out their wining on a given day.

I would undertake to draw up a strategy fopr either of these men to fight Ali.
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Old 07-15-2007, 03:48 PM   #4
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Default Re: Holmes or Louis against prime Ali.

I think both lose to Ali in his prime, but Holmes has a better chance of beating Ali than Louis ever did.
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Old 07-15-2007, 04:52 PM   #5
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Default Re: Holmes or Louis against prime Ali.

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Originally Posted by Titan1
I think both lose to Ali in his prime, but Holmes has a better chance of beating Ali than Louis ever did.
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Old 07-15-2007, 05:20 PM   #6
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Default Re: Holmes or Louis against prime Ali.

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Originally Posted by C. M. Clay II
Seriously - give it a rest. You don't have to become best mates with every single person who says something good about Muhammad Ali. You don't have to put his name forward in every thread or mention one of his fights every time someone says 'most exciting' or 'greatest wins' - have a bit of variety!!! Don't you get bored? I would have thought there was only so much talking you could do about one fighter, but maybe I was wrong.
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Old 07-15-2007, 05:25 PM   #7
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Default Re: Holmes or Louis against prime Ali.

Holmes - Yes.

Louis - No.
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Old 07-15-2007, 05:39 PM   #8
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Default Re: Holmes or Louis against prime Ali.

I think Holmes' style would have been a bigger problem for Ali than Louis's. And maybe Holmes could squeeze in a split decision, but I doubt it.
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Old 07-15-2007, 06:04 PM   #9
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Default Re: Holmes or Louis against prime Ali.

I would always pick prime Louis to beat prime Ali.

He's the only one I would be choosing on fight night though, presuming there was nothing unreasonable in the build ups.
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Old 07-15-2007, 06:17 PM   #10
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Default Re: Holmes or Louis against prime Ali.

Louis would have gotten dizzy chasing a prime Ali. When he was able to get to Muhammad, Ali would have been able to withstand whatever Louis had to dish out. Joe was a patient and aggressive counterpuncher who never stopped an opponent beyond round 13. Ali took out the tough Bonavena and Wepner in round 15, nearly stopped Shavers in that same round, and won Manila after 14 grueling rounds. In the FOTC, he got up from a hellacious left hook after having his body pounded for 14 rounds, and was actually fighting back after getting up. A widely noted strong finisher, he had no difficulty winning the 15th and final round against Chuvalo, Terrell, Foster, and others. Peak Ali would have no difficuly whatsoever evading Louis into the championship rounds, then the match would be all his.

Ali UD 15 Louis

Larry Holmes is a different matter entirely. He has indicated that he felt at his physical peak against Cooney, and was able to shut out Shavers over 12 in their first match, Berbick and Cobb over 15. The fact that Eddie Futch was his chief second when he was at his best figures heavily in this scenario. Futch knew how to beat Ali, Holmes knew how to carry out his corner's advice, and Larry had the physical strength, toughness, endurance, and other tools necessary to give Ali a great deal of difficulty.

Over the first three rounds of their match, Zora Folley kept Ali off his toes by standing his ground and making Muhammad take Zora head on. He won two of those first three rounds by landing singular bodyshots from the outside, and consecutive lead rights to the head. (Futch got Holmes to stop lifting his left leg before throwing his right, so Larry was no longer tipping that punch off.) Holmes certainly had a fast enough jab to through Ali off his rhythym, and Muhammad didn't mind giving away bodyshots, a tendency which Futch and Holmes would exploit for building points and winning rounds (as Larry in fact did in round nine of the Carl Williams fight).

Ali dropped the smaller and slower Folley twice by outmanuevering him with a quick step to the right, followed by a hook or chin spinning cross, almost from behind Folley's left side. Larry was faster than Zora, and even if Ali did manage to succeed in nailing Holmes with such a punch, Larry would have been more than strong enough to stand up to it.

One of Muhammad's sneaky tactics for draining his opponent's strength and energy was to continually pull down on their necks in the clinches. Because Larry's style was that of a stand-up boxer, this strategy would not be available to Ali so much. As the match went on, Muhammad would discover that Holmes wasn't going to wind down late. Ali's lean was really geared for slipping the left hook, and it worked more often than not, but the hook wasn't a primary weapon in Larry's repertoire anyways.

Ali's primary weapon would have to be his long fast right hand lead. If I was in his corner, I'd recommend that Muhammad abandon his jab, except as a diversion, and rely on a punch Holmes can be reached with as his main tool of choice. (That Ali didn't always listen to his corner's instructions also plays a role in my speculative outcome.)

No KD's, no stoppage. This one's going 15 rounds. Ali would spot Larry a lead on the scorecards like Norton did, then come on like gangbusters. He'd be catching up by the end, but not quite get there.

Holmes SD 15 Ali

(But no wagering the rent on this!)
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Old 07-15-2007, 07:09 PM   #11
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Default Re: Holmes or Louis against prime Ali.

Quote:
I would always pick prime Louis to beat prime Ali.
Louis didn't have the footwork to beat Ali. Ali would not stand still and trade punches like so many of Joe's opponents, but would move about and overwhelm Louis with his handspeed. Even if Ali does get caught, he has proved his chin against some of the hardest hitters boxing has seen. Ali comes away with a comfortable UD on this one.

Holmes on the other hand could present some problems. Really can not make a judgement on this one, but can only be assured it would be a terrific fight.
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Old 07-15-2007, 08:34 PM   #12
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Default Re: Holmes or Louis against prime Ali.

Quote:
Originally Posted by Duodenum
Louis would have gotten dizzy chasing a prime Ali. When he was able to get to Muhammad, Ali would have been able to withstand whatever Louis had to dish out. Joe was a patient and aggressive counterpuncher who never stopped an opponent beyond round 13. Ali took out the tough Bonavena and Wepner in round 15, nearly stopped Shavers in that same round, and won Manila after 14 grueling rounds. In the FOTC, he got up from a hellacious left hook after having his body pounded for 14 rounds, and was actually fighting back after getting up. A widely noted strong finisher, he had no difficulty winning the 15th and final round against Chuvalo, Terrell, Foster, and others. Peak Ali would have no difficuly whatsoever evading Louis into the championship rounds, then the match would be all his.

Ali UD 15 Louis

Larry Holmes is a different matter entirely. He has indicated that he felt at his physical peak against Cooney, and was able to shut out Shavers over 12 in their first match, Berbick and Cobb over 15. The fact that Eddie Futch was his chief second when he was at his best figures heavily in this scenario. Futch knew how to beat Ali, Holmes knew how to carry out his corner's advice, and Larry had the physical strength, toughness, endurance, and other tools necessary to give Ali a great deal of difficulty.

Over the first three rounds of their match, Zora Folley kept Ali off his toes by standing his ground and making Muhammad take Zora head on. He won two of those first three rounds by landing singular bodyshots from the outside, and consecutive lead rights to the head. (Futch got Holmes to stop lifting his left leg before throwing his right, so Larry was no longer tipping that punch off.) Holmes certainly had a fast enough jab to through Ali off his rhythym, and Muhammad didn't mind giving away bodyshots, a tendency which Futch and Holmes would exploit for building points and winning rounds (as Larry in fact did in round nine of the Carl Williams fight).

Ali dropped the smaller and slower Folley twice by outmanuevering him with a quick step to the right, followed by a hook or chin spinning cross, almost from behind Folley's left side. Larry was faster than Zora, and even if Ali did manage to succeed in nailing Holmes with such a punch, Larry would have been more than strong enough to stand up to it.

One of Muhammad's sneaky tactics for draining his opponent's strength and energy was to continually pull down on their necks in the clinches. Because Larry's style was that of a stand-up boxer, this strategy would not be available to Ali so much. As the match went on, Muhammad would discover that Holmes wasn't going to wind down late. Ali's lean was really geared for slipping the left hook, and it worked more often than not, but the hook wasn't a primary weapon in Larry's repertoire anyways.

Ali's primary weapon would have to be his long fast right hand lead. If I was in his corner, I'd recommend that Muhammad abandon his jab, except as a diversion, and rely on a punch Holmes can be reached with as his main tool of choice. (That Ali didn't always listen to his corner's instructions also plays a role in my speculative outcome.)

No KD's, no stoppage. This one's going 15 rounds. Ali would spot Larry a lead on the scorecards like Norton did, then come on like gangbusters. He'd be catching up by the end, but not quite get there.

Holmes SD 15 Ali

(But no wagering the rent on this!)
Some interesting points, especially your take on Ali v Holmes. We are talking a prime Ali, but must throw in that Norton timed his jabs to perfection when he beat Ali. While Norton's tactics were mainly primed on aggressivenes and working Ali over with power shots against the ropes, he jabbed his way in brilliantly. Futch knew he had more weapons in the locker with Norton, as Frazier's work at long range was a restriction.

Regarding Holmes. Not only did Holmes have a sharp acccurate jab, he was also busy with it. Probably busier with the jab than anyone Ali ever shared a ring with in his entire career. Many fighters over the years have possessed great jabs, but never use it enough.

Holmes would be best served pressuring Ali. He had the ability to step in with the jab as Ali was retreating on the backfoot, then follow with the left hook to the body and the straight right hand. Not only did Holmes fire the straight right hand, he also curved it.

Ali going against the ropes with Holmes spells disaster. The uppercut inside was a primary weapon throughout Holmes' career. And while Holmes' may not be as effective as Frazier at close quarters, he was comfortable enough in that department to have Ali coming off second best. Lying against the ropes would give Holmes' a stationary target for measuring with the right hand. Watch Holmes' fights, and his hunny punch when he had any opponent on the ropes was the right hand.

Ali had better upperbody movement than Holmes did. This would cause Holmes problems at long range with Ali bending from the waist and using head movement to sway away and counter with the jab.

Holmes was very quick during his prime, but Ali was a bit quicker with his hands, and his reflexes with sharper.

I can't pick a winner.
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Old 07-15-2007, 08:52 PM   #13
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Default Re: Holmes or Louis against prime Ali.

Quote:
Originally Posted by Titan1
I think both lose to Ali in his prime, but Holmes has a better chance of beating Ali than Louis ever did.

Gets my vote as well.
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Old 07-15-2007, 10:07 PM   #14
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Default Re: Holmes or Louis against prime Ali.

Absolutly yes, they could both beat Ali & vice versa.
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Old 07-15-2007, 10:44 PM   #15
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Default Re: Holmes or Louis against prime Ali.

Both Ali and Holmes were offensively-minded, take-control guys. Ali was better on offense by virtue of his amazing ring movement, which allows him to dictate the tempo, and his nonpareil blizzard combinations. Ali against Williams is the fighter I see in these fantasies and Holmes, not a one-punch killer but a technician himself, would always be a step behind.

Ali can steal the round and multiply this by 15 to take the decision.
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