Boxing  

Forum Home Boxing Forum European British Classic Aussie MMA Training
Go Back   Boxing News 24 Forum > Boxing > Classic Boxing Forum

 
  


Reply
 
Thread Tools
Old 07-15-2007, 10:53 PM   #16
Manassa
-
ESB Addict
 
Join Date: Apr 2007
Location: ESB since '05
Posts: 3,883
vCash: 75
Default Re: Holmes or Louis against prime Ali.

Quote:
Originally Posted by prime
Both Ali and Holmes were offensively-minded
I must have missed the fights where Ali pressed the action.
Manassa is offline  Top
Reply With Quote
Old 07-15-2007, 11:41 PM   #17
prime
BOX! Writing Champion
ESB Senior Member
 
Join Date: Feb 2006
Location: Guadalajara, Jal., Mexico
Posts: 1,229
vCash: 1000
Default Re: Holmes or Louis against prime Ali.

When in a fight, Ali turned it on from the beginning: Liston 1; Liston 2; Williams; Frazier 1; Frazier 2; Frazier 3; Norton 2; Foreman; Spinks 2, just a sample of the fights you should not miss where Muhammad Ali shows his wonderful offensive abilities.
prime is offline  Top
Reply With Quote
Old 07-15-2007, 11:49 PM   #18
Robbi
Marvelous
East Side Guru
 
Join Date: Jul 2004
Location: UK
Posts: 7,550
vCash: 1000
Default Re: Holmes or Louis against prime Ali.

Quote:
Originally Posted by prime
When in a fight, Ali turned it on from the beginning: Liston 1; Liston 2; Williams; Frazier 1; Frazier 2; Frazier 3; Norton 2; Foreman; Spinks 2, just a sample of the fights you should not miss where Muhammad Ali shows his wonderful offensive abilities.
Manassa's statement of "pressing the action" means, being the aggressor over a considerable period of time during fights. Constantly coming forward and exchanging punches without any rest, or Ali stalking his opponent, thus becoming the bull against the matador.

Not sure Ali done that too much at all.
Robbi is offline  Top
Reply With Quote
Sponsored Links
Old 07-16-2007, 12:24 AM   #19
prime
BOX! Writing Champion
ESB Senior Member
 
Join Date: Feb 2006
Location: Guadalajara, Jal., Mexico
Posts: 1,229
vCash: 1000
Default Re: Holmes or Louis against prime Ali.

I think it was Sugar Shane Mosley who called Ali an "unorthodox brawler". The fact that he didn't normally "come forward", Young-fight style, doesn't mean he was not an offensively-minded, take-control guy, as I originally stated.

Of course Ali's style was not bloodthirsty like say Roberto Duran's or Joe Frazier's. But he was always looking for the opening, either taking the initiative, like when he drew first blood against Liston in Round 3, or waiting to strike back swiftly like against Foreman.

Ali threw a lot of punches, most not exactly counters; to me that is an offensive fighter. He just didn't feel like brawling orthodox-style.
prime is offline  Top
Reply With Quote
Old 07-16-2007, 02:19 AM   #20
NickHudson
Gatekeeper
ESB Full Member
 
Join Date: Apr 2007
Location: Brisbane, Australia
Posts: 447
vCash: 1000
Default Re: Holmes or Louis against prime Ali.

This is prime for prime. How is Ali going to the ropes relevent?

Presumably, he would be using his fantastic leg movement, combined with upper body movement to dart in and out of range as and when he saw fit.

Quote:
Originally Posted by Robbi

Ali going against the ropes with Holmes spells disaster.
NickHudson is offline  Top
Reply With Quote
Old 07-16-2007, 02:36 AM   #21
booradley
Mean People Kick Ass!
East Side VIP
 
Join Date: Aug 2006
Posts: 19,936
vCash: 622
Default Re: Holmes or Louis against prime Ali.

Quote:
Originally Posted by Duodenum
Louis would have gotten dizzy chasing a prime Ali. When he was able to get to Muhammad, Ali would have been able to withstand whatever Louis had to dish out. Joe was a patient and aggressive counterpuncher who never stopped an opponent beyond round 13. Ali took out the tough Bonavena and Wepner in round 15, nearly stopped Shavers in that same round, and won Manila after 14 grueling rounds. In the FOTC, he got up from a hellacious left hook after having his body pounded for 14 rounds, and was actually fighting back after getting up. A widely noted strong finisher, he had no difficulty winning the 15th and final round against Chuvalo, Terrell, Foster, and others. Peak Ali would have no difficuly whatsoever evading Louis into the championship rounds, then the match would be all his.

Ali UD 15 Louis

Larry Holmes is a different matter entirely. He has indicated that he felt at his physical peak against Cooney, and was able to shut out Shavers over 12 in their first match, Berbick and Cobb over 15. The fact that Eddie Futch was his chief second when he was at his best figures heavily in this scenario. Futch knew how to beat Ali, Holmes knew how to carry out his corner's advice, and Larry had the physical strength, toughness, endurance, and other tools necessary to give Ali a great deal of difficulty.

Over the first three rounds of their match, Zora Folley kept Ali off his toes by standing his ground and making Muhammad take Zora head on. He won two of those first three rounds by landing singular bodyshots from the outside, and consecutive lead rights to the head. (Futch got Holmes to stop lifting his left leg before throwing his right, so Larry was no longer tipping that punch off.) Holmes certainly had a fast enough jab to through Ali off his rhythym, and Muhammad didn't mind giving away bodyshots, a tendency which Futch and Holmes would exploit for building points and winning rounds (as Larry in fact did in round nine of the Carl Williams fight).

Ali dropped the smaller and slower Folley twice by outmanuevering him with a quick step to the right, followed by a hook or chin spinning cross, almost from behind Folley's left side. Larry was faster than Zora, and even if Ali did manage to succeed in nailing Holmes with such a punch, Larry would have been more than strong enough to stand up to it.

One of Muhammad's sneaky tactics for draining his opponent's strength and energy was to continually pull down on their necks in the clinches. Because Larry's style was that of a stand-up boxer, this strategy would not be available to Ali so much. As the match went on, Muhammad would discover that Holmes wasn't going to wind down late. Ali's lean was really geared for slipping the left hook, and it worked more often than not, but the hook wasn't a primary weapon in Larry's repertoire anyways.

Ali's primary weapon would have to be his long fast right hand lead. If I was in his corner, I'd recommend that Muhammad abandon his jab, except as a diversion, and rely on a punch Holmes can be reached with as his main tool of choice. (That Ali didn't always listen to his corner's instructions also plays a role in my speculative outcome.)

No KD's, no stoppage. This one's going 15 rounds. Ali would spot Larry a lead on the scorecards like Norton did, then come on like gangbusters. He'd be catching up by the end, but not quite get there.

Holmes SD 15 Ali

(But no wagering the rent on this!)
Very good analysis; Wasn't Holmes a sparring partner for Ali when Larry was on the way up? Not sure I'd pick Holmes, but then again, not sure I'd pick Ali either! Two of my favorite fighters ever!

Boo
booradley is offline  Top
Reply With Quote
Old 07-16-2007, 03:33 AM   #22
fists of fury
Champion
East Side Guru
 
Join Date: Oct 2006
Location: March for Revenge
Posts: 6,264
vCash: 1887
Default Re: Holmes or Louis against prime Ali.

I'd make Ali a favourite against Louis because Joe had trouble with slick boxers who could move. I'm just not sure Louis would be able to catch Ali on the ropes or in the corner, and Ali's speed of foot would create problems for the 'shufflin' shadow.'

I think Holmes is a 50/50 pick. Holmes possessed a world-class jab with a great boxing brain. I can see him making Ali fight his fight instead of the other way round.
fists of fury is offline  Top
Reply With Quote
Old 07-16-2007, 04:08 AM   #23
Holmes' Jab
Master Jabber
ESB Addict
 
Join Date: Nov 2006
Posts: 2,551
vCash: 1000
Default Re: Holmes or Louis against prime Ali.

Over the course of a three fight series both have a live chance of defeating Ali at some point or other. I think that Holmes style matches up better head-to-head, though.

Still, two tough fights to call here. Ali certainly couldn't afford to be slack against a puncher of Louis' calibre. No way josé!
Holmes' Jab is offline  Top
Reply With Quote
Old 07-16-2007, 06:12 AM   #24
Duodenum
Champion
East Side Guru
 
Join Date: Apr 2007
Posts: 5,803
vCash: 1000
Default Re: Holmes or Louis against prime Ali.

Peak Ali didn't go to the ropes much. It's only in the FOTC, and especially with Foreman and after, that we see him doing this more frequently. Holmes was very aggressive with his jab, and like Ali, would not hesitate to go to the sternum with it when Muhammad leaned back.

Yes, Holmes was one of Ali's sparring partners for Foreman. (In Ali's ghostwritten 1975 autobiography, mention is made of "young, fast, smart Larry Holmes," three years before Larry became famous for decisioning Earnie Shavers.)

In 1980, Holmes started out far more tentatively against Ali than he would have with Eddie Futch in his corner. Even with Richie Giachetti though, Larry's attacking with the jab right away. Using that weapon, he wouldn't have been expending a great deal of energy.

It's difficult for me to envision Ali going to the ropes against Larry. Holmes might just stay outside, and continue picking away with the jab, hardly something that would cause Larry to punch himself out. Holmes was very good at keeping his hands up, an effective defensive tactic against Ali. Muhammad's body attack wouldn't do much to Larry. The only indication of Ali going downstairs as a mainstay of his attack that I've read was against Blue Lewis. (I haven't seen any footage of this match though.)
Duodenum is offline  Top
Reply With Quote
Old 07-16-2007, 08:27 AM   #25
Manassa
-
ESB Addict
 
Join Date: Apr 2007
Location: ESB since '05
Posts: 3,883
vCash: 75
Default Re: Holmes or Louis against prime Ali.

Quote:
Originally Posted by prime
When in a fight, Ali turned it on from the beginning: Liston 1; Liston 2; Williams; Frazier 1; Frazier 2; Frazier 3; Norton 2; Foreman; Spinks 2, just a sample of the fights you should not miss where Muhammad Ali shows his wonderful offensive abilities.
Quote:
where Muhammad Ali shows his wonderful offensive abilities.


I think he took the back foot for about 95% of the total time he fought those opponents. It would be 99% but he did go forward a bit more against Cleveland 'Punching Bag' Williams.
Manassa is offline  Top
Reply With Quote
Old 07-16-2007, 08:30 AM   #26
Manassa
-
ESB Addict
 
Join Date: Apr 2007
Location: ESB since '05
Posts: 3,883
vCash: 75
Default Re: Holmes or Louis against prime Ali.

Quote:
Originally Posted by prime
I think it was Sugar Shane Mosley who called Ali an "unorthodox brawler". The fact that he didn't normally "come forward", Young-fight style, doesn't mean he was not an offensively-minded, take-control guy, as I originally stated.

Of course Ali's style was not bloodthirsty like say Roberto Duran's or Joe Frazier's. But he was always looking for the opening, either taking the initiative, like when he drew first blood against Liston in Round 3, or waiting to strike back swiftly like against Foreman.

Ali threw a lot of punches, most not exactly counters; to me that is an offensive fighter. He just didn't feel like brawling orthodox-style.
What you're basically saying is that 'Ali threw punches' so therefore he was offensive minded. Every boxer throws punches.
Manassa is offline  Top
Reply With Quote
Old 07-16-2007, 08:34 AM   #27
Robbi
Marvelous
East Side Guru
 
Join Date: Jul 2004
Location: UK
Posts: 7,550
vCash: 1000
Default Re: Holmes or Louis against prime Ali.

Quote:
Originally Posted by NickHudson
This is prime for prime. How is Ali going to the ropes relevent?

Presumably, he would be using his fantastic leg movement, combined with upper body movement to dart in and out of range as and when he saw fit.
Don't know what the problem is with advising Ali not to go to the ropes. Going to the ropes is relevent, as their is every chance Ali goes to the ropes for a short period of time. Nownere in my post did I say a prime Ali would "definitley" lean on the ropes like he did with Foreman.

I'm simply telling a prime Ali "Don't go anywhere near the ropes"
Robbi is offline  Top
Reply With Quote
Old 07-16-2007, 08:36 AM   #28
McGrain
Diamond Dog
East Side VIP
 
Join Date: Mar 2007
Posts: 37,243
vCash: 1000
Default Re: Holmes or Louis against prime Ali.

Quote:
Originally Posted by Manassa
What you're basically saying is that 'Ali threw punches' so therefore he was offensive minded. Every boxer throws punches.
I consider Ali an aggresive fighter. He certainly isn't a Floyd Mayweather - he's in there trying to dominate his man one way or the other, he's not pot-shoting his way to a decision.
McGrain is online now  Top
Reply With Quote
Old 07-16-2007, 09:10 AM   #29
Muchmoore
Guest
 
Posts: n/a
vCash:
Default Re: Holmes or Louis against prime Ali.

Ali beats both of them but I wouldn't be tooo confident. Holmes if he can successfully time Alis jab and counter like Norton he will win, and Louis is one of the all time great punchers and finishers.
 Top
Reply With Quote
Old 07-16-2007, 09:30 AM   #30
Manassa
-
ESB Addict
 
Join Date: Apr 2007
Location: ESB since '05
Posts: 3,883
vCash: 75
Default Re: Holmes or Louis against prime Ali.

Jesus. Not only was Ali the best boxer-mover in heavyweight history, according to some he was also the strongest because he was good at clinching illegally, had the best chin even though others have shown to be sturdier, had 'very good' power despite almost never knocking a man out, and was now aggressive, even though he almost never took the front foot. The man must be magic. One poster in this very thread described Ali's offense as 'wonderful' - his uppercut was a slap, the left hook a swat and the body punching was nearly non-existant, and even his better punches only occasionally carried sufficient force to stun a man. Still, it's Ali. His offense must have been wonderful, and it's probably blasphemous to disagree.
Manassa is offline  Top
Reply With Quote
Reply

Boxing News 24 Forum > Boxing > Classic Boxing Forum

Thread Tools

Posting Rules
You may not post new threads
You may not post replies
You may not post attachments
You may not edit your posts

BB code is On
Smilies are On
[IMG] code is Off
HTML code is Off

Forum Jump





All times are GMT -4. The time now is 05:02 AM.


Powered by vBulletin® Version 3.8.0
Copyright ©2000 - 2014, Jelsoft Enterprises Ltd.
Boxing News 24 Forum 2013