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View Poll Results: Frazier ahead of Marciano?
Yes 35 49.30%
No 36 50.70%
Voters: 71. You may not vote on this poll

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Old 06-19-2007, 03:31 PM   #16
mr. magoo
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Default Re: Would Frazier rank ahead of Marciano had he retired after beating Ali?

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Originally Posted by Sonny's jab
"Outside of Ali" isn't the reality. Frazier beat Ali in a classic fight. That's significant in his ranking.

I doubt you will agree but I think Jerry Quarry and Jimmy Ellis were of roughly the same quality as Walcott, Moore, Charles.

George Chuvalo, Oscar Bonavena, Joe Bugner, Buster Mathis, Bob Foster, old Eddie Machen - all this opposition can be picked apart but I think there's more depth in there than if you assessed Marciano's top 9 or 10 opponents.
Agreed.

Jerry Quarry beat Floyd Patterson, Ron Lyle, Earnie Shavers, Mac Foster, Buster Mathis and a number of other good fighters. Frankly, I think he's better than most of the guys the Rock fought.
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Old 06-19-2007, 03:34 PM   #17
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Default Re: Would Frazier rank ahead of Marciano had he retired after beating Ali?

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Originally Posted by Dempsey1238
I belive Ellis is a bit over rated, outside of being blasted by Fraizer and Ali, and holding part of a alpha title, I cant think of anything worth wild about him.
Well, he beat Leotis Martin, Oscar Bonavena, Jerry Quarry and George Chuvalo ......... but I guess you might not rate them as good contenders either. It's all subjective I guess.
Ellis was a good skilful smallish heavyweight. I can imagine him outpointing an old Joe Louis, I can imagine him beating a fair few of the earlier linear champions.
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Old 06-19-2007, 03:36 PM   #18
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Default Re: Would Frazier rank ahead of Marciano had he retired after beating Ali?

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Originally Posted by mr. magoo
Agreed.

Jerry Quarry beat Floyd Patterson, Ron Lyle, Earnie Shavers, Mac Foster, Buster Mathis and a number of other good fighters. Frankly, I think he's better than most of the guys the Rock fought.
Jerry Quarry's resume is very solid.

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Old 06-19-2007, 03:44 PM   #19
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Default Re: Would Frazier rank ahead of Marciano had he retired after beating Ali?

Quarry failed when he step up vs to face the elite of his era.
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Old 06-19-2007, 03:47 PM   #20
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Default Re: Would Frazier rank ahead of Marciano had he retired after beating Ali?

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Originally Posted by Dempsey1238
Quarry failed when he step up vs to face the elite of his era.
Yes, he had tougher era than Charles & Walcott.
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Old 06-19-2007, 03:49 PM   #21
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Default Re: Would Frazier rank ahead of Marciano had he retired after beating Ali?

I think there would probably be more people who would rank Frazier ahead of Marciano than there are, and even a few who ranked him #1 or #2, but the majority would probably still have him below Marciano- he would only have been 27-0, barely over half of Marciano's 49-0, and there's a good chance Ali wouldn't be remembered as the greatest had Frazier just retired after beating him, since then it would be a decisive, unavenged loss, and the win over Foreman wouldn't be as meaningful as it was without Foreman's having demolished Frazier, which would translate in many people's eyes into Frazier's win not carrying as much weight in many people's eyes.
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Old 06-19-2007, 03:50 PM   #22
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Default Re: Would Frazier rank ahead of Marciano had he retired after beating Ali?

And I belive had Charles and Walcott fought in the 70's, they be holding the title at some point in the 70's. Either during the exile of Ali or when Ali faded. And perhaps one of em could have upseting Foreman for the title.??? Either way they were as good, if not a level below Ali or Fraizer. I not impress with Foreman in regards to boxing skill. He just swing away. Hench the reason Ali took Foreman to school. I think old cuties like Charles or Walcott would have the same chance imo.
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Old 06-19-2007, 05:16 PM   #23
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Default Re: Would Frazier rank ahead of Marciano had he retired after beating Ali?

To pipe in here on the Quarry-and-Ellis-compared-with-Walcott-Charles-and-Moore angle, Walcott and Charles were my #14 and 15 all-time heavyweights, while Quarry, if I remember correctly, was somewhere from #24-27 last time I compiled a list. Moore was around #30, and Ellis was closer to 40th.
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Old 06-19-2007, 08:06 PM   #24
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Default Re: Would Frazier rank ahead of Marciano had he retired after beating Ali?

No, Frazier was at the top of his game in the 1st Ali fight but Ellis,Quarry,Bonavena(think of those 3's record against Patterson) decisions most felt Patterson won )Floyd got the nod over Ringo) Was Ringo such a big puncher, he put Frazier down twice but not Floyd (who was dropped and KO'd quite a few times already) Ellis was beaten 5 times as a middleweight and dropped by Rubin Carter) Quarry was good vs the BIG slow punchers(Lyle,Foster,Shavers, but was dropped by Patterson,KO'd by Chuvalo and was eratic. Frazier made a BIG name for himself after Ali 1 but was never the same after his Big fight, Thats like Marcino retiring after the 1st Walcott fight. A great Swarmer can not have a long prime because it is a gruiling style but Marciano did it for 49 fight 7 of those title fights, Frazier did it for Ali 1 but could not stay in that top fighting form. Another thing do you see how experience helped Older Patterson vs Ellis( most felt he was robbed ) fought a draw with Quarry and lost a close one and beat Bonavena, YES that is the same experience that a more rugged Walcott and Charles took into there fights with Marciano, also Lastarza was 53-3 when he got the rematch and beat everyone who ever beat him except Rocky in there close fight so he was no slouch
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Old 06-19-2007, 09:12 PM   #25
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Default Re: Would Frazier rank ahead of Marciano had he retired after beating Ali?

If Frazier had beaten Foreman and then retire....then **** yes.
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Old 06-20-2007, 02:56 AM   #26
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Default Re: Would Frazier rank ahead of Marciano had he retired after beating Ali?

A couple reasons I regard Frazier more highly than Marciano

1) Defeated my #1 ATG HW and gave him some of his toughest wins

2) Fought superior competition. Bonavena, Machen, Mathis, Quarry, Ellis, and Foster is a very deep line of competition. Probaly only second to Ali in terms of depth of competitiveness. Walcott and Charles are good wins but both were beyond their primes. Some may debate this but Walcott fought Rocky in his last two fights at the age of roughly 39. Charles was most definitely 5-6 years past his best and had been in decline for some time. I truly believe a Charles from '49 would beat a prime Marciano.

3) Suffered two KO losses to Foreman but really could not have met a worse stylistic match. How many top 10 fighters faced an opponent that was more tailor made for their destruction. That would be like Ali having faced a 200lb Henry Armstrong. Had Marciano stuck around he would have faced a similiar fate against Liston.
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Old 06-20-2007, 03:58 AM   #27
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Default Re: Would Frazier rank ahead of Marciano had he retired after beating Ali?

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Originally Posted by mr. magoo
Name recognition wise, no. Walcott, Moore, Louis and Charles had better legacies, but were starting to get up there in age. Frazier on the otherhand, beat prime versions of Ellis, Quarry, Bonavena, Mathis and Machen. Although, these men will never have the names that the other guys had, at least they were very good fighters at their best when Joe faced them.
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Old 06-20-2007, 09:16 AM   #28
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Default Re: Would Frazier rank ahead of Marciano had he retired after beating Ali?

I already rank Frazier over Marciano.
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Old 07-03-2007, 08:56 PM   #29
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Default Re: Would Frazier rank ahead of Marciano had he retired after beating Ali?

First off, they were both great fighters. The thing about Marciano is he was 49 and 0 with 43 K's. Since he was never defeated as a pro, you have to wonder if he could be beat. He showed many times, particularly against Walcott and Charles that even when loosing on points and badly cut, he came back and knocked them out. He was a very special kind of fighter. I place him a notch above Frazier.
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Old 07-04-2007, 01:06 AM   #30
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Default Re: Would Frazier rank ahead of Marciano had he retired after beating Ali?

Nope. And the Rock would beat Joe head to head, too.
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