Boxing  

Forum Home Boxing Forum European British Classic Aussie MMA Training
Go Back   Boxing News 24 Forum > Boxing > Classic Boxing Forum


View Poll Results: Frazier ahead of Marciano?
Yes 35 49.30%
No 36 50.70%
Voters: 71. You may not vote on this poll

Reply
 
Thread Tools
Old 07-04-2007, 01:27 AM   #31
hopkinsfan07
Contender
ESB Senior Member
 
Join Date: Jun 2007
Posts: 963
vCash: 1305
Default Re: Would Frazier rank ahead of Marciano had he retired after beating Ali?

Quote:
Originally Posted by Ramon Rojo
I already rank Frazier over Marciano.
me 2
hopkinsfan07 is offline  Top
Reply With Quote
Sponsored Links
Old 07-04-2007, 08:11 AM   #32
Mendoza
Dominating a decade
East Side VIP
 
Join Date: Jun 2007
Posts: 14,215
vCash: 1000
Default Re: Would Frazier rank ahead of Marciano had he retired after beating Ali?

Quote:
Originally Posted by Sonny's jab
"Outside of Ali" isn't the reality. Frazier beat Ali in a classic fight. That's significant in his ranking.

I doubt you will agree but I think Jerry Quarry and Jimmy Ellis were of roughly the same quality as Walcott, Moore, Charles.

George Chuvalo, Oscar Bonavena, Joe Bugner, Buster Mathis, Bob Foster, old Eddie Machen - all this opposition can be picked apart but I think there's more depth in there than if you assessed Marciano's top 9 or 10 opponents.
This is how I see it as well. Frazier's 10 best wins is a bit deeper than Rocky's best 10 wins. If Frazier retired after he beat Ali, the entire heavyweight top ten would be different. Both Ali and Foreman had two legacy wins wins over Frazier. If Frazier reitres in March 1971, these fights would have never happened. This would bump Formean out of the top 10, and possibly even move Ali out of the top 3.
Mendoza is offline  Top
Reply With Quote
Old 07-04-2007, 08:47 AM   #33
Bummy Davis
Champion
East Side Guru
 
Join Date: Aug 2004
Location: New York
Posts: 9,426
vCash: 1000
Default Re: Would Frazier rank ahead of Marciano had he retired after beating Ali?

Frazier was still a fighter with only 27 fights at that point (to early ) and there were a lot of people who felt a great stamina hard puncher like Louis,Marciano,Dempsey (Frazier type) would be the guy to beat Ali but not too many people felt Frazier was as good as those 3. A lot of Frazier's greatness was based on the first Ali fight but he still only had 27 fights at that point
Bummy Davis is offline  Top
Reply With Quote
Old 07-04-2007, 10:05 AM   #34
robert ungurean
Belt holder
ESB Addict
 
Join Date: Jun 2007
Location: shadow boxing in phila.
Posts: 2,385
vCash: 1000
Default Re: Would Frazier rank ahead of Marciano had he retired after beating Ali?

Quote:
Originally Posted by Sonny's jab
I rank Frazier ahead of Marciano.
robert ungurean is online now  Top
Reply With Quote
Old 07-04-2007, 11:54 AM   #35
groove
Contender
ESB Senior Member
 
Join Date: May 2006
Posts: 1,028
vCash: 1000
Default Re: Would Frazier rank ahead of Marciano had he retired after beating Ali?

Walcott and Charles have no chance of winning the title in the 70s. Ali, Frazier and Foreman would all crucify them. They would be good contenders like Norton, Patterson, Quarry, Ellis, Lyle etc. Overrated 50s. Charles a true light heavy who would struggle against Bob Foster who both Frazier and Ali murdered. Walcott an old man who would never have a chance of winning the title in the 70s. Ali was the first guy to stop Bonavena. He was a tough fighter.
groove is offline  Top
Reply With Quote
Old 07-04-2007, 12:36 PM   #36
My dinner with Conteh
Champion
East Side Guru
 
Join Date: Dec 2004
Posts: 4,999
vCash: 1000
Default Re: Would Frazier rank ahead of Marciano had he retired after beating Ali?

I rank Joe a bit behind Rocky but there's no doubt he'd have rated ahead if he'd gone undefeated after Ali. The Foreman mashing definitely cost him a few places.
My dinner with Conteh is offline  Top
Reply With Quote
Old 07-04-2007, 03:37 PM   #37
ironchamp
Belt holder
ESB Addict
 
Join Date: Sep 2004
Location: New York
Posts: 2,825
vCash: 1230
Default Re: Would Frazier rank ahead of Marciano had he retired after beating Ali?

Well to answer the thread,

I think Frazier would have had an imcomplete career had he retired right after Ali, too short a career to really give him his due.

He would be held in higher regard than he is held in now as he would be given the benefit of the doubt in fantasy matches seeing how the Foreman fights, and 2nd and 3rd Ali fight would have never happened.

I mean could you imagine what people would have said about Tyson if he stopped fighting after Micheal Spinks? 35-0 31KOs 7 title defenses
ironchamp is offline  Top
Reply With Quote
Old 07-04-2007, 07:05 PM   #38
JohnBKelly
Journeyman
 
Join Date: Oct 2005
Posts: 89
vCash: 1000
Default Re: Would Frazier rank ahead of Marciano had he retired after beating Ali?

As long as Ali was alive and able to communicate Joe Frazier would have no peace if he retired back in 1971. Imagine an angry Ali standing in your garden at 4 every morning calling you a yellow Uncle Tom who only beat me because "the man" bought the judges. Don't kid yourself that this kind of thing didn't happen between 1971 and 1973.

Poor Joe only a man with genuine inner peace could put up with Ali pursuing him before he laced on the gloves again. As it was back 1971 Joe wasn't rich enough to quit, come to think of it Joe still isn't rich enough to quit!

So why would Joe retire in 1971 when even a blind man could see that there were millions to be made by fighting Ali again, just not straight away. When Marciano retired the division was in the doldrums, there was no big paydays within easy reach. Thats why Rocky could walk away without losing face. That option was not available to Smokin Joe.
JohnBKelly is offline  Top
Reply With Quote
Old 11-01-2007, 12:53 AM   #39
brownpimp88
Belt holder
ESB Addict
 
Join Date: Feb 2007
Posts: 1,689
vCash: 1000
Default Re: Would Frazier rank ahead of Marciano had he retired after beating Ali?

Jerry Quarry is a better win than jersey joe walcott in my opinion. Rex Layne, Joey maxim and Elmer Ray beat a prime walcott, why cant quarry. Walcott is 10-12 overall against ranked fighters, yeah thats not so impressive is it. I also believe that at heavyweight, quarry would beat archie moore.
brownpimp88 is offline  Top
Reply With Quote
Old 11-01-2007, 06:53 AM   #40
janitor
P4P King
East Side VIP
 
Join Date: Feb 2006
Posts: 21,226
vCash: 1000
Default Re: Would Frazier rank ahead of Marciano had he retired after beating Ali?

Quote:
Originally Posted by groove
Walcott and Charles have no chance of winning the title in the 70s.
Walcott would always have a chance of wining the title. It is inherant in his style.
janitor is offline  Top
Reply With Quote
Old 11-01-2007, 07:40 AM   #41
janitor
P4P King
East Side VIP
 
Join Date: Feb 2006
Posts: 21,226
vCash: 1000
Default Re: Would Frazier rank ahead of Marciano had he retired after beating Ali?

Quote:
Originally Posted by brownpimp88
Jerry Quarry is a better win than jersey joe walcott in my opinion. Rex Layne, Joey maxim and Elmer Ray beat a prime walcott, why cant quarry. Walcott is 10-12 overall against ranked fighters, yeah thats not so impressive is it. I also believe that at heavyweight, quarry would beat archie moore.
Walcott cleaned out the top 10 of his own era to get a shot at the title. We have to recognise him as being better than Quarry even if he could loose to a fighter of that calibre.
janitor is offline  Top
Reply With Quote
Old 11-01-2007, 09:23 AM   #42
ChrisPontius
March 8th, 1971
East Side Guru
 
Join Date: Oct 2005
Location: Holland
Posts: 9,643
vCash: 238
Default Re: Would Frazier rank ahead of Marciano had he retired after beating Ali?

Quote:
Originally Posted by groove
Walcott and Charles have no chance of winning the title in the 70s. Ali, Frazier and Foreman would all crucify them. They would be good contenders like Norton, Patterson, Quarry, Ellis, Lyle etc. Overrated 50s. Charles a true light heavy who would struggle against Bob Foster who both Frazier and Ali murdered. Walcott an old man who would never have a chance of winning the title in the 70s. Ali was the first guy to stop Bonavena. He was a tough fighter.
This is true. Quarry, Bonavena, Quarry, Ellis, Lyle, Shavers and Foster would all have been undisputed heavyweight champions in other eras. Also, no heavyweight that didn't fight in the 70's would stand a chance at winning the title during that era*. Lineal champions like Tyson, Holmes, Marciano, Lewis, Dempsey and Louis would share the same fate as Quarry, Bonavena etc in the 70's; being contenders but lose all big fights because they're fighting 70's heavyweights. They would still rank higher than they do now though, cause they get to lose to Ali, Frazier, Foreman, Lyle, etc.


*Unless you're 6-0-1 Leon Spinks.
ChrisPontius is offline  Top
Reply With Quote
Old 11-01-2007, 01:44 PM   #43
Dempsey1238
Champion
East Side Guru
 
Join Date: Jul 2005
Posts: 5,015
vCash: 1000
Default Re: Would Frazier rank ahead of Marciano had he retired after beating Ali?

Shavers would have failed at being champ in ANY era imo. The guy had a near shot Ali in front of him and failed. Spinks was able to do what Shavers SHOULD have done.
Dempsey1238 is offline  Top
Reply With Quote
Old 11-01-2007, 02:33 PM   #44
Duodenum
Champion
East Side Guru
 
Join Date: Apr 2007
Posts: 5,803
vCash: 1000
Default Re: Would Frazier rank ahead of Marciano had he retired after beating Ali?

No, I don't think so. The key difference would have been Frazier's near loss to Bonavena in their first meeting. The granite jawed Marciano was never close to getting beaten in that way, never rocked as Ringo stunned Joe.

Beyond the fact that Rocky had nearly twice as many wins overall, I believe that yet another major factor would have been the rise of so many prominent heavyweights in the early 1970s. It may have been speculated that Frazier retired to avoid the upcoming crop of contenders. Naysayers may have also claimed that Ali rushed into the FOTC prematurely, with the expectation that the U.S. Supreme Court was going to rule against him on the draft issue.

In Marciano's case, there were really no more worlds to conquer after knocking out Moore. Nobody was in position at the time to be considered a promotable challenger by the public, and Archie was the most colorful figure Rocky could have defended against. With him dispatched in such convincing fashion, it was truly time to retire. He couldn't be accused of avoiding anybody.

After Frazier repelled Ali, many expected him to be able to dominate the heavyweights as long as he cared to. Foreman was widely expected to be another strong victim for Joe, the way the aggressive but fragile skinned Stander had been. However, after Frazier had been out of boxing for a couple of years following the FOTC, revisionists would have come out of the woodwork, claiming that Joe retired to avoid Norton, Shavers, Lyle and Foreman (among others). Marciano's reputation was at no risk of getting hampered in that way.
Duodenum is offline  Top
Reply With Quote
Old 11-01-2007, 02:46 PM   #45
red cobra
Undisputed Champion
East Side VIP
 
Join Date: Jul 2004
Location: The Sea of Tranquility
Posts: 13,175
vCash: 1000
Default Re: Would Frazier rank ahead of Marciano had he retired after beating Ali?

Marciano's place in the annals of boxing is secure and his is the unique achievement of retiring with a perfect record after beating the best of his time. No, Joe Frazier dosen't compare to Rocky Marciano, not at all.
red cobra is online now  Top
Reply With Quote
Reply

Boxing News 24 Forum > Boxing > Classic Boxing Forum

Thread Tools

Posting Rules
You may not post new threads
You may not post replies
You may not post attachments
You may not edit your posts

BB code is On
Smilies are On
[IMG] code is Off
HTML code is Off

Forum Jump





All times are GMT -4. The time now is 06:21 AM.


Powered by vBulletin® Version 3.8.0
Copyright ©2000 - 2014, Jelsoft Enterprises Ltd.
Boxing News 24 Forum 2013