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Old 07-17-2007, 01:56 PM   #16
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Default Re: Jack Dempsey's Head Movement

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Frazier is a level below those choices
Though given his blindness, I think it's the best system that could have been constructed.
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Old 07-17-2007, 01:58 PM   #17
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Default Re: Jack Dempsey's Head Movement

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. And you're right, Dempsey does mash Foreman. It would be Toledo all over again. Dempsey had too much speed and mobility for Lurch.)
This is my feeling too.

Though perhaps a less clean victory.
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Old 07-17-2007, 02:56 PM   #18
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Default Re: Jack Dempsey's Head Movement

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Incredibley, I think you may be underestimating Joe Louis in this department, though broadly speaking, I think I agree. I'd like to see him matched with Lewis in this department - I think that Lewis' defensive infighting may be a match for Dempsey's offensive infighting.
I always asumed that Louis was the best of the heavyweight infighters in terms of ability to throw compact punches.

Recent analysis of film by Michael Hunnicut suggests that Jack Dempsey threw more punches that traveled under 12" than any other heavyweight with Louis as a close second.

If you put either of these guys in a telephone box with another heavyweight then they would be the one who would walk out of it. It is things like this that act as a chiling echo of the claims that the old timers made for Dempsey.
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Old 07-17-2007, 04:39 PM   #19
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Default Re: Jack Dempsey's Head Movement

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This is my feeling too.

Though perhaps a less clean victory.
Now, when did Dempsey ever score a "clean" victory?
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Old 07-17-2007, 05:30 PM   #20
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Default Re: Jack Dempsey's Head Movement

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Originally Posted by Duodenum
The movie footage is really needed to see Dempsey's head movement to best effect. When he set Tunney up for the Long Count KD, he canted his head to the inside of Tunney's jab, and as it went sailing harmlessly past, slammed his right home, from the outside of Tunney's extended arm, to Gene's temple, wobbling him from mid ring to the ropes. In that momentary instant, his weaving reverted to that of his peak years.

One of the first exchanges in Dempsey/Willard shows Jack ducking Willard's jab, then striking up with a counter hook. I suspect Dempsey picked up a lot of his opponents punching cues from their foot positioning.

Jack didn't parry jabs much. Like Jack Johnson, his preferred tactic was to intercept a jab by punching his right into his adversary's left bicep as he started one. The reason this didn't work against Tunney was because of Dempsey's ring rust, and especially diminished reflexes and timing. But at his peak, his speed and quick reflexes would have been more than sufficient to thwart a jab from the outset. (Years later, the day after he refereed Max Baer's loss to Loughran, he famously showed Max how to stop a jab in this way. But Baer didn't quite have the reaction time of a peak Dempsey.)

Frequently, Jack's approach was based on slipping another boxer's shots, and responding with counters as he moved in. Evasive head movement is essential for this. The best example of calculated head movement from Frazier is probably from the second match with Foreman. Generally though, Joe's head movement was indeed more rhythymic and predictable.
How do you know that this cutting off the jab with the right to the biceps didn't work against Tunney because Tunney was faster than the men Dempsey had fought and it was a tactic that would have never worked against Tunney?
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Old 07-17-2007, 05:43 PM   #21
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Default Re: Jack Dempsey's Head Movement

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Originally Posted by janitor
I always asumed that Louis was the best of the heavyweight infighters in terms of ability to throw compact punches.
Pretty much the crucial factor for me.


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Recent analysis of film by Michael Hunnicut suggests that Jack Dempsey threw more punches that traveled under 12" than any other heavyweight with Louis as a close second.
But what is the significance of this distance? I'd guess not much as according to punches thrown 14". Where Louis may - may - exceed Dempsey and does in terms of destruction.

Seriously, let's give Dempsey the doubt over 12" - can you really give him the doubt over 14"?

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If you put either of these guys in a telephone box with another heavyweight then they would be the one who would walk out of it. It is things like this that act as a chiling echo of the claims that the old timers made for Dempsey.
If Louis and Dempsey were in the phonebox?
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Old 07-17-2007, 05:44 PM   #22
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Default Re: Jack Dempsey's Head Movement

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Now, when did Dempsey ever score a "clean" victory?
I knew you were going to say that.
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Old 07-17-2007, 05:50 PM   #23
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Default Re: Jack Dempsey's Head Movement

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Originally Posted by OLD FOGEY
How do you know that this cutting off the jab with the right to the biceps didn't work against Tunney because Tunney was faster than the men Dempsey had fought and it was a tactic that would have never worked against Tunney?
It may not have. Inch 4 inch, Tunney may have had the best jab in HW history, making Dempsey wholly dependent on slipping that jab in order to counter. But it's all speculation now. I believe Toledo Jack would have stopped the Tunney of the Heeney fight, primarily by getting under, or weaving to the sides of Gene's jab, then stunning him repeatedly with devastating counters. (Have you ever seen the grimace on Tunney's face when he delivered his jab? A very ill-intentioned slam to the head!)

For all we know, the Dempsey of the Willard fight may have been faster than anybody Tunney ever faced. (Jack was certainly the hardest puncher. He only needed to connect two solid punches on Gene to land him, for the only time in Tunney's career. Gene would have had to withstand considerably more than that from the Dempsey of Toledo.)
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Old 07-17-2007, 05:52 PM   #24
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Default Re: Jack Dempsey's Head Movement

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I knew you were going to say that.
Damn. I've gotta stop telegraphing my shots!
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Old 07-17-2007, 05:59 PM   #25
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Default Re: Jack Dempsey's Head Movement

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Originally Posted by Duodenum
Damn. I've gotta stop telegraphing my shots!
As long as they're accurate, you don't have to worry.
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Old 07-17-2007, 05:59 PM   #26
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Default Re: Jack Dempsey's Head Movement

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Originally Posted by Duodenum
It may not have. Inch 4 inch, Tunney may have had the best jab in HW history, making Dempsey wholly dependent on slipping that jab in order to counter. But it's all speculation now. I believe Toledo Jack would have stopped the Tunney of the Heeney fight, primarily by getting under, or weaving to the sides of Gene's jab, then stunning him repeatedly with devastating counters. (Have you ever seen the grimace on Tunney's face when he delivered his jab? A very ill-intentioned slam to the head!)

For all we know, the Dempsey of the Willard fight may have been faster than anybody Tunney ever faced. (Jack was certainly the hardest puncher. He only needed to connect two solid punches on Gene to land him, for the only time in Tunney's career. Gene would have had to withstand considerably more than that from the Dempsey of Toledo.)
Yes, but a year before Toledo, Dempsey went to a ten round draw with Billy Miske. Miske's record at the time was not that outstanding, and the Dempsey draw was sandwiched between losses to Kid Norfolk, and followed by losses to Harry Greb. Dempsey overpowered the slow moving Willard, but his performances against Miske in 1918 and Brennan in 1920 certainly leave openings for those who would consider him more vulnerable than you would allow to smaller, faster men with better boxing skills.

I don't think it likely, although without film I guess there is no way of proving it, that Dempsey was faster or had better reflexes than Harry Greb.
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Old 07-17-2007, 06:19 PM   #27
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Default Re: Jack Dempsey's Head Movement

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Originally Posted by OLD FOGEY
Yes, but a year before Toledo, Dempsey went to a ten round draw with Billy Miske. Miske's record at the time was not that outstanding, and the Dempsey draw was sandwiched between losses to Kid Norfolk, and followed by losses to Harry Greb. Dempsey overpowered the slow moving Willard, but his performances against Miske in 1918 and Brennan in 1920 certainly leave openings for those who would consider him more vulnerable than you would allow to smaller, faster men with better boxing skills.

I don't think it likely, although without film I guess there is no way of proving it, that Dempsey was faster or had better reflexes than Harry Greb.
True, Willard was ready to be transformed into the biggest pinata in heavyweight history, but the version of Dempsey he faced was honed to a razor's edge, surely the utmost peak of Jack's career. (Too bad we saw so little of it, thanks to Kearn's recklessly stupid gamble. It would have been extremely revealing to see him go a more calculated distance against the endurance champion of the Havana heat.)
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Old 07-17-2007, 06:24 PM   #28
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Default Re: Jack Dempsey's Head Movement

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Originally Posted by Duodenum
True, Willard was ready to be transformed into the biggest pinata in heavyweight history, but the version of Dempsey he faced was honed to a razor's edge, surely the utmost peak of Jack's career. (Too bad we saw so little of it, thanks to Kearn's recklessly stupid gamble. It would have been extremely revealing to see him go a more calculated distance against the endurance champion of the Havana heat.)
Dempsey certainly looks impressive slaughtering Willard, but Jess was pushing 38, hadn't fought in 3 years, and appears, off the film, to have not been in anything like top shape. I don't see how one can reasonably extrapolate a victory over Tunney from this fight.
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Old 07-17-2007, 06:39 PM   #29
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Default Re: Jack Dempsey's Head Movement

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Originally Posted by OLD FOGEY
Dempsey certainly looks impressive slaughtering Willard, but Jess was pushing 38, hadn't fought in 3 years, and appears, off the film, to have not been in anything like top shape. I don't see how one can reasonably extrapolate a victory over Tunney from this fight.
Mainly because Jess was also an insanely tough sonofagun, who held the most cherished prize in all sports. In connecting with him, Dempsey inflicted substantial physical damage. Gene was considerably smaller, yet still boxed tall. Dempsey's footwork and mobility against Willard was considerably superior to what the rusty and misfiring version brought to Sesquicentennial Stadium and Soldier Field.

We already know for a fact that a shot version of Dempsey still had the firepower necessary to stun and drop Tunney. Improve his speed, reflexes, accuracy, sharpness, and subtract seven years from his age, and Tunney would really have his hands full. He would not have limited Dempsey to landing just two hard headshots.
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Old 07-17-2007, 06:47 PM   #30
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Default Re: Jack Dempsey's Head Movement

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Originally Posted by Duodenum
Mainly because Jess was also an insanely tough sonofagun, who held the most cherished prize in all sports. In connecting with him, Dempsey inflicted substantial physical damage. Gene was considerably smaller, yet still boxed tall. Dempsey's footwork and mobility against Willard was considerably superior to what the rusty and misfiring version brought to Sesquicentennial Stadium and Soldier Field.

We already know for a fact that a shot version of Dempsey still had the firepower necessary to stun and drop Tunney. Improve his speed, reflexes, accuracy, sharpness, and subtract seven years from his age, and Tunney would really have his hands full. He would not have limited Dempsey to landing just two hard headshots.
I do think your arguement here is similar to the "Cooper dropped Ali and so Liston will kill him" line of reasoning. I don't dispute that Dempsey had gone back, but he still might well have caught Tunney with the best punch he ever had in his arsenal and who knows if a younger Dempsey could automatically have done better. The fact is, Dempsey
hit Tunney with his best shot and Tunney got up and danced away. The Long Count clouds the whole issue, I know. I think Tunney would have beaten a regular count. I understand that many disagree.
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