Boxing  

Forum Home Boxing Forum European British Classic Aussie MMA Training
Go Back   Boxing News 24 Forum > Boxing > Classic Boxing Forum


Reply
 
Thread Tools
Old 06-19-2007, 02:47 PM   #1
PowerPuncher
P4P King
East Side VIP
 
Join Date: Jul 2004
Posts: 20,610
vCash: 1000
Default 60s Prime Ali in the 70s

With the extra stamina, faster feet, more movement, better balance, greater athleticism.
How do these fights go:

Frazier
Norton
Foreman
Young
Lyle
Shavers
Spinks
Holmes

All these fighters come over 4 years - from 1964-1968
PowerPuncher is offline  Top
Reply With Quote
Sponsored Links
Old 06-19-2007, 02:51 PM   #2
mr. magoo
Undisputed Champion
East Side VIP
 
Join Date: Jan 2007
Location: Chicago, Illinois USA
Posts: 13,414
vCash: 1000
Default Re: 60s Prime Ali in the 70s

Quote:
Originally Posted by PowerPuncher
With the extra stamina, faster feet, more movement, better balance, greater athleticism.
How do these fights go:

Frazier
Norton
Foreman
Young
Lyle
Shavers
Spinks
Holmes

All these fighters come over 4 years - from 1964-1968
The Ali you're describing beats all these guys by wide decision, and some by KO.
mr. magoo is offline  Top
Reply With Quote
Old 06-19-2007, 03:04 PM   #3
PowerPuncher
P4P King
East Side VIP
 
Join Date: Jul 2004
Posts: 20,610
vCash: 1000
Default Re: 60s Prime Ali in the 70s

Quote:
Originally Posted by mr. magoo
The Ali you're describing beats all these guys by wide decision, and some by KO.
I think the only 1s up for discussion would be:

Frazier and Holmes

Alis athleticism and stamina would have edged a close fight with Frazier imo.

Holmes Ali would be close but Alis speed and movement would out do Holmes.

Norton poses problems but would be outworked and outsped
PowerPuncher is offline  Top
Reply With Quote
Old 06-19-2007, 03:08 PM   #4
mr. magoo
Undisputed Champion
East Side VIP
 
Join Date: Jan 2007
Location: Chicago, Illinois USA
Posts: 13,414
vCash: 1000
Default Re: 60s Prime Ali in the 70s

Quote:
Originally Posted by PowerPuncher
I think the only 1s up for discussion would be:

Frazier and Holmes

Alis athleticism and stamina would have edged a close fight with Frazier imo.

Holmes Ali would be close but Alis speed and movement would out do Holmes.

Norton poses problems but would be outworked and outsped
Agreed. Frankly, I think that Foreman, Frazier and Norton only fought a watered down version of Ali. What's more, he lost 3.5 good years of his career between ages 25-28. Think about it , those are the prime years for most great fighters.
mr. magoo is offline  Top
Reply With Quote
Old 06-19-2007, 03:27 PM   #5
PowerPuncher
P4P King
East Side VIP
 
Join Date: Jul 2004
Posts: 20,610
vCash: 1000
Default Re: 60s Prime Ali in the 70s

Quote:
Originally Posted by mr. magoo
Agreed. Frankly, I think that Foreman, Frazier and Norton only fought a watered down version of Ali. What's more, he lost 3.5 good years of his career between ages 25-28. Think about it , those are the prime years for most great fighters.
It could be that Frazier and Foreman wouldn't have been remembered as great, if Ali beats Frazier in a close but clear 9-6 contest, makes Foreman look like a circus act, both would fade away from getting future title shots and forgot about.
PowerPuncher is offline  Top
Reply With Quote
Old 06-19-2007, 03:35 PM   #6
mr. magoo
Undisputed Champion
East Side VIP
 
Join Date: Jan 2007
Location: Chicago, Illinois USA
Posts: 13,414
vCash: 1000
Default Re: 60s Prime Ali in the 70s

Quote:
Originally Posted by PowerPuncher
It could be that Frazier and Foreman wouldn't have been remembered as great, if Ali beats Frazier in a close but clear 9-6 contest, makes Foreman look like a circus act, both would fade away from getting future title shots and forgot about.
All of the above are good possibilities. I'm not so sure that Joe Frazier ever would have been a champion, had Ali not left the game for so long. What's more, had he lost to Muhammad, he would have been forced to take a more dangerous path in an attempt to get a second shot. This would probably have meant facing more guys like Norton, Shavers, Lyle and M. Foster.
mr. magoo is offline  Top
Reply With Quote
Old 06-19-2007, 03:43 PM   #7
C. M. Clay II
Manassah's finest!
ESB Senior Member
 
Join Date: Sep 2006
Location: Brooklyn, New York
Posts: 1,138
vCash: 1000
Default Re: 60s Prime Ali in the 70s

Quote:
Originally Posted by PowerPuncher
With the extra stamina, faster feet, more movement, better balance, greater athleticism.
How do these fights go:

Frazier
Norton
Foreman
Young
Lyle
Shavers
Spinks
Holmes

All these fighters come over 4 years - from 1964-1968
Frazier - Ali UD 9-6.

Norton - Ali UD 11-4.

Foreman - Ali TKO 8.

Young - Ali TKO 13.

Lyle - Ali TKO 10.

Shavers - Ali KO 6.

Spinks - Ali KO 5.

Holmes - Ali UD 9-5-1.

C. M. Clay II is offline  Top
Reply With Quote
Old 06-19-2007, 03:57 PM   #8
Manassa
-
ESB Addict
 
Join Date: Apr 2007
Location: ESB since '05
Posts: 3,883
vCash: 75
Default Re: 60s Prime Ali in the 70s

Anyone who thinks Ali would go undefeated just because he would start out the decade at his peak is pretty much a total pothead.
Manassa is offline  Top
Reply With Quote
Old 06-19-2007, 03:58 PM   #9
Luigi1985
Cane Corso
ESB Addict
 
Join Date: Feb 2006
Posts: 2,326
vCash: 1000
Default Re: 60s Prime Ali in the 70s

Quote:
Originally Posted by Manassa
Anyone who thinks Ali would go undefeated just because he would start out the decade at his peak is pretty much a total pothead.

Exactly my words!
Luigi1985 is offline  Top
Reply With Quote
Old 06-19-2007, 03:58 PM   #10
My dinner with Conteh
Champion
East Side Guru
 
Join Date: Dec 2004
Posts: 4,999
vCash: 1000
Default Re: 60s Prime Ali in the 70s

Quote:
Originally Posted by Manassa
Anyone who thinks Ali would go undefeated just because he would start out the decade at his peak is pretty much a total pothead.

Yep. Frazier would always have a fine chance against Ali for a start.
My dinner with Conteh is offline  Top
Reply With Quote
Old 06-19-2007, 05:20 PM   #11
Marciano Frazier
Contender
ESB Senior Member
 
Join Date: Jul 2004
Posts: 1,469
vCash: 1000
Default Re: 60s Prime Ali in the 70s

Quote:
Originally Posted by PowerPuncher
With the extra stamina, faster feet, more movement, better balance, greater athleticism.
How do these fights go:

Frazier
Norton
Foreman
Young
Lyle
Shavers
Spinks
Holmes

All these fighters come over 4 years - from 1964-1968
Frazier is probably a very close decision either way, Norton is a close-but-clear win for Ali, Foreman might actually give a '60s Ali a rougher go of it, but Ali wins mid-late KO or UD, Young would give him an awkward fight, but Ali by close decision, Ali wins pretty sound UDs over Lyle, Shavers and Spinks, and Holmes would be a very close decision either way, leaning slightly towards Ali.
Marciano Frazier is offline  Top
Reply With Quote
Old 06-19-2007, 05:23 PM   #12
Marciano Frazier
Contender
ESB Senior Member
 
Join Date: Jul 2004
Posts: 1,469
vCash: 1000
Default Re: 60s Prime Ali in the 70s

Quote:
Originally Posted by mr. magoo
All of the above are good possibilities. I'm not so sure that Joe Frazier ever would have been a champion, had Ali not left the game for so long. What's more, had he lost to Muhammad, he would have been forced to take a more dangerous path in an attempt to get a second shot. This would probably have meant facing more guys like Norton, Shavers, Lyle and M. Foster.
Um, Quarry, Ellis and Bonavena were consistently ranked higher and were better fighters at the time Frazier fought them than Shavers, Lyle and Foster. Norton was Frazier's stablemate and their backers didn't want to pit them against each other.
Marciano Frazier is offline  Top
Reply With Quote
Old 06-19-2007, 05:40 PM   #13
ChrisPontius
March 8th, 1971
East Side Guru
 
Join Date: Oct 2005
Location: Holland
Posts: 9,643
vCash: 238
Default Re: 60s Prime Ali in the 70s

Frazier beats him the first time around whenever they fight. The others probably end up losing although he'd surely have some trouble with Norton and Young.
No one remains at his peak for so long though.
ChrisPontius is offline  Top
Reply With Quote
Old 06-19-2007, 06:40 PM   #14
Duodenum
Champion
East Side Guru
 
Join Date: Apr 2007
Posts: 5,803
vCash: 1000
Default Re: 60s Prime Ali in the 70s

Put Eddie Futch in the corner of Holmes, and he scores an upset decision win over Ali. Zora Folley had early round success against an established fast starter, by standing his ground (rather than following or retreating), landing singular bodyshots from the outside (which Ali gave away freely), and scoring with successive right hand leads, a punch which Futch taught Holmes to stop telegraphing. (Before he met Futch, Holmes had been lifting his left leg before throwing the right, thus tipping it off.)

Finally, Muhammad's jab was never so much faster than Larry's that Holmes couldn't use his to throw Ali off his rhythym. Holmes was much bigger, stronger, and more durable than Folley, and no HW Champion carried out his corner's instructions better than Larry Holmes. No knockdowns, no stoppage, but Ali would spot Holmes a lead on the scorecards, and then find that Larry had too much left in the tank for Muhammad to catch up. Larry would use his jab aggressively in this matchup, building up points without expending energy needed for the championship rounds. Peak Ali conserved energy by dancing. It was punching which wore the young Muhammad down. Larry would take away Muhammad's dancing by standing his ground, as Folley did. Holmes would use his own footwork to keep Ali in front of him at all times. (Both times Ali floored Folley, he did it by getting behind Folley's left side first.) Look at round nine of Larry's bout with Carl Williams. He and Futch would likely have a fight plan similar to that improvised Holmes attack on The Truth's body, entering an Ali matchup to begin with.

When they actually did face off in 1980, Holmes opened by boxing much more cautiously, with Ritchie Giachetti in his corner, than he would have with Futch. Holmes also followed Ali around more than I think Eddie would have advised him to. Futch wouldn't have had Larry aim his left hook at Ali's head much, except as a diversionary tactic, since Ali's lean was really geared towards slipping the hook. In Murray Woroner's staged 1969 performance between Marciano and Ali, Muhammad was identified as "an underrated counterpuncher," something Futch and Holmes would have been mindful of. Larry would also be mindful of Ali's frequent right leads, as Muhammad had more than enough speed and reach to nail Larry flush with it. But I don't think Muhammad had the kind of firepower to drive Holmes to the deck with it. If Ali does manage to stun Holmes as Snipes did, then Larry would need all his resourcefulness to survive. When shooting to kill, Ali was a great finisher.

Ali was the most physically gifted heavyweight in history. Only his hands were a liability. But in this one, brains prevails over brawn and toughness. Ali is The Greatest for reasons which transcend whether or not he would have defeated everybody else in competition. While my belief that Holmes would have decisioned him is not strongly held, with Eddie Futch in his corner he had the intelligence and physical tools to carry off a points win, more than any other heavyweight in history.

Norton wasn't as aggressive in his first two matches against Ali as he should have been, and a split decision verdict was a fair reflection of how competitive Ali was in the first encounter, despite being badly injured. In the second fight, Ken just followed Ali around for the first several rounds without punching. Against peak Ali, Norton would go the distance, and then get slammed by the press for not trying, as Bugner was after Malaysia. I've watched both of Ali's 1973 bouts with Norton in their entirety, and while Ken did a great job parrying Ali's jab with his defensively held right, Norton didn't counterjab Ali as much as has been reported. Ken seemed more inclined to use the threat of it as a deterrent to Ali's attack.

Ali-Frazier would have been a hectic fight for Ali, and a frustrating one for Frazier, who would have been swatting at a lot of empty air. Very similar to their middle bout, except with Ali clinching less, and not trying to take Frazier out with early round bombs. Neither would look like they'd been in a fight afterwards. Ali's dancing and running would keep his body too far away from Joe's hook for his downstairs attack to much of a factor in the scoring. Frazier's aggression in forcing the fight accounts for the bulk of his points, but it would have limited effectiveness.

George Foreman was great at cutting the ring off, but he didn't have the speed or straight punching necessary to give Muhammad much trouble. If he did get close enough to score, he'd need X-ray vision to see through Ali's left fist, which would have been Super-Glued to George's face for as long as the match continued. Through the first half of the fight, the number of punches landed by Foreman might be in the single digits. Peak Ali probably opts for a decision win here, and likely wins on all three cards by a score of 150-135.

Jimmy Young was a good bodypuncher, with a fine left hand, but he didn't have the power to gain Ali's respect. Getting peak Ali to come forward may be a recipe for survival, but not for winning. If Ali does manage to hurt Jimmy as Foreman did, Ali will likely finish the job. But this would probably be a very dull chess match win where Ali can't look very good.

In 1975, Ron Lyle boxed Ali as well as he possibly could have. Peak Ali would not have spotted Lyle a points deficit. Ron would take the younger Ali past 12, but rounds 13, 14 and 15, represent a gauntlet Lyle wouldn't be able to finish.

Earnie Shavers would be interesting. The young Ali would have stopped Earnie, but not before getting off the floor. Shavers had the power to drop Muhammad with a single shot, the only way a peak Ali could be decked. Once Ali suffered the indignation of touching down, and his recuperative powers quickly restored him to his full senses, Muhammad would drop his points scoring mode to go for the jugular, as he did with Wepner.

Ali probably cruises to a mid or late round win over Spinks. That would depend on what mood he was in. He'd either treat it as a sparring session, or an opportunity to entertain the audience. Spinks's aggression would create openings Muhammad simply couldn't pass up, and maybe shortening the bout more than I speculate.

Ali UD 15 Norton (146-139)
Ali UD 15 Frazier (144-141)
Ali Shutout 15 Foreman (150-135)
Ali TKO Lyle 14
Ali UD 15 Young (144-141)
Ali KO 13 Shavers (He'd wait until Earnie was completely spent)
Ali TKO 11 Spinks
Holmes SD 15 Ali (I wouldn't place a bet on this though)
Duodenum is offline  Top
Reply With Quote
Old 06-20-2007, 07:23 AM   #15
PowerPuncher
P4P King
East Side VIP
 
Join Date: Jul 2004
Posts: 20,610
vCash: 1000
Default Re: 60s Prime Ali in the 70s

Quote:
Originally Posted by Manassa
Anyone who thinks Ali would go undefeated just because he would start out the decade at his peak is pretty much a total pothead.
So pick how you see the fights going against 64-68 Ali
PowerPuncher is offline  Top
Reply With Quote
Reply

Boxing News 24 Forum > Boxing > Classic Boxing Forum

Thread Tools

Posting Rules
You may not post new threads
You may not post replies
You may not post attachments
You may not edit your posts

BB code is On
Smilies are On
[IMG] code is Off
HTML code is Off

Forum Jump





All times are GMT -4. The time now is 05:26 PM.


Powered by vBulletin® Version 3.8.0
Copyright ©2000 - 2014, Jelsoft Enterprises Ltd.
Boxing News 24 Forum 2013