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Old 06-20-2007, 08:16 AM   #16
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Default Re: 60s Prime Ali in the 70s

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Originally Posted by PowerPuncher
So pick how you see the fights going against 64-68 Ali
It depends when he faces them. If he faces Frazier, Foreman, Holmes and Norton first, and only fights them once each, he might win them all. If those four come last and he's been slowed a bit by the others, he's going to pick up a couple of losses. If Ali fought each fighter twice, that's sixteen fights, I'd expect him to lose about three.
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Old 06-20-2007, 10:32 AM   #17
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Default Re: 60s Prime Ali in the 70s

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Put Eddie Futch in the corner of Holmes, and he scores an upset decision win over Ali. Zora Folley had early round success against an established fast starter, by standing his ground (rather than following or retreating), landing singular bodyshots from the outside (which Ali gave away freely), and scoring with successive right hand leads, a punch which Futch taught Holmes to stop telegraphing. (Before he met Futch, Holmes had been lifting his left leg before throwing the right, thus tipping it off.)

Finally, Muhammad's jab was never so much faster than Larry's that Holmes couldn't use his to throw Ali off his rhythym. Holmes was much bigger, stronger, and more durable than Folley, and no HW Champion carried out his corner's instructions better than Larry Holmes. No knockdowns, no stoppage, but Ali would spot Holmes a lead on the scorecards, and then find that Larry had too much left in the tank for Muhammad to catch up. Larry would use his jab aggressively in this matchup, building up points without expending energy needed for the championship rounds. Peak Ali conserved energy by dancing. It was punching which wore the young Muhammad down. Larry would take away Muhammad's dancing by standing his ground, as Folley did. Holmes would use his own footwork to keep Ali in front of him at all times. (Both times Ali floored Folley, he did it by getting behind Folley's left side first.) Look at round nine of Larry's bout with Carl Williams. He and Futch would likely have a fight plan similar to that improvised Holmes attack on The Truth's body, entering an Ali matchup to begin with.

When they actually did face off in 1980, Holmes opened by boxing much more cautiously, with Ritchie Giachetti in his corner, than he would have with Futch. Holmes also followed Ali around more than I think Eddie would have advised him to. Futch wouldn't have had Larry aim his left hook at Ali's head much, except as a diversionary tactic, since Ali's lean was really geared towards slipping the hook. In Murray Woroner's staged 1969 performance between Marciano and Ali, Muhammad was identified as "an underrated counterpuncher," something Futch and Holmes would have been mindful of. Larry would also be mindful of Ali's frequent right leads, as Muhammad had more than enough speed and reach to nail Larry flush with it. But I don't think Muhammad had the kind of firepower to drive Holmes to the deck with it. If Ali does manage to stun Holmes as Snipes did, then Larry would need all his resourcefulness to survive. When shooting to kill, Ali was a great finisher.

Ali was the most physically gifted heavyweight in history. Only his hands were a liability. But in this one, brains prevails over brawn and toughness. Ali is The Greatest for reasons which transcend whether or not he would have defeated everybody else in competition. While my belief that Holmes would have decisioned him is not strongly held, with Eddie Futch in his corner he had the intelligence and physical tools to carry off a points win, more than any other heavyweight in history.

Norton wasn't as aggressive in his first two matches against Ali as he should have been, and a split decision verdict was a fair reflection of how competitive Ali was in the first encounter, despite being badly injured. In the second fight, Ken just followed Ali around for the first several rounds without punching. Against peak Ali, Norton would go the distance, and then get slammed by the press for not trying, as Bugner was after Malaysia. I've watched both of Ali's 1973 bouts with Norton in their entirety, and while Ken did a great job parrying Ali's jab with his defensively held right, Norton didn't counterjab Ali as much as has been reported. Ken seemed more inclined to use the threat of it as a deterrent to Ali's attack.

Ali-Frazier would have been a hectic fight for Ali, and a frustrating one for Frazier, who would have been swatting at a lot of empty air. Very similar to their middle bout, except with Ali clinching less, and not trying to take Frazier out with early round bombs. Neither would look like they'd been in a fight afterwards. Ali's dancing and running would keep his body too far away from Joe's hook for his downstairs attack to much of a factor in the scoring. Frazier's aggression in forcing the fight accounts for the bulk of his points, but it would have limited effectiveness.

George Foreman was great at cutting the ring off, but he didn't have the speed or straight punching necessary to give Muhammad much trouble. If he did get close enough to score, he'd need X-ray vision to see through Ali's left fist, which would have been Super-Glued to George's face for as long as the match continued. Through the first half of the fight, the number of punches landed by Foreman might be in the single digits. Peak Ali probably opts for a decision win here, and likely wins on all three cards by a score of 150-135.

Jimmy Young was a good bodypuncher, with a fine left hand, but he didn't have the power to gain Ali's respect. Getting peak Ali to come forward may be a recipe for survival, but not for winning. If Ali does manage to hurt Jimmy as Foreman did, Ali will likely finish the job. But this would probably be a very dull chess match win where Ali can't look very good.

In 1975, Ron Lyle boxed Ali as well as he possibly could have. Peak Ali would not have spotted Lyle a points deficit. Ron would take the younger Ali past 12, but rounds 13, 14 and 15, represent a gauntlet Lyle wouldn't be able to finish.

Earnie Shavers would be interesting. The young Ali would have stopped Earnie, but not before getting off the floor. Shavers had the power to drop Muhammad with a single shot, the only way a peak Ali could be decked. Once Ali suffered the indignation of touching down, and his recuperative powers quickly restored him to his full senses, Muhammad would drop his points scoring mode to go for the jugular, as he did with Wepner.

Ali probably cruises to a mid or late round win over Spinks. That would depend on what mood he was in. He'd either treat it as a sparring session, or an opportunity to entertain the audience. Spinks's aggression would create openings Muhammad simply couldn't pass up, and maybe shortening the bout more than I speculate.

Ali UD 15 Norton (146-139)
Ali UD 15 Frazier (144-141)
Ali Shutout 15 Foreman (150-135)
Ali TKO Lyle 14
Ali UD 15 Young (144-141)
Ali KO 13 Shavers (He'd wait until Earnie was completely spent)
Ali TKO 11 Spinks
Holmes SD 15 Ali (I wouldn't place a bet on this though)
Excellent post, I totally agree.
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Old 06-20-2007, 11:03 AM   #18
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Default Re: 60s Prime Ali in the 70s

Ali would defeat all of them.
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Old 06-20-2007, 11:30 PM   #19
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Default Re: 60s Prime Ali in the 70s

He would have kicked some serious ass.
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Old 06-29-2007, 06:09 AM   #20
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Default Re: 60s Prime Ali in the 70s

Quote:
Originally Posted by PowerPuncher
With the extra stamina, faster feet, more movement, better balance, greater athleticism.
How do these fights go:

Frazier
Norton
Foreman
Young
Lyle
Shavers
Spinks
Holmes

All these fighters come over 4 years - from 1964-1968
Frazier and Holmes have a chance. Ali beats all the others- for sure, either by a wide decision or stoppage.
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Old 04-04-2012, 12:37 PM   #21
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Default Re: 60s Prime Ali in the 70s

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Originally Posted by PowerPuncher View Post
With the extra stamina, faster feet, more movement, better balance, greater athleticism.
How do these fights go:

Frazier
Norton
Foreman
Young
Lyle
Shavers
Spinks
Holmes

All these fighters come over 4 years - from 1964-1968
Ali beats them all.Holmes and Frazier would give him the closest fights, but Ali would still beat them by UD's.

A
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Old 04-04-2012, 12:45 PM   #22
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Default Re: 60s Prime Ali in the 70s

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Originally Posted by PowerPuncher View Post
With the extra stamina, faster feet, more movement, better balance, greater athleticism.
How do these fights go:

Frazier
Norton
Foreman
Young
Lyle
Shavers
Spinks
Holmes

All these fighters come over 4 years - from 1964-1968
So it's an actual schedule he faces?

He loses to Frazier in his first defence.

If he trains adequately he'll beat norton, but there's also the chance he underestimates him and loses a close decision.

In his prime he still beats Foreman as he was too fast for foreman to hit and a big man missing that many punches in a fight spells trouble. Late stoppage for Ali.

Prime Ali could do everything YOung did but better. Crappy wide decision.

Lyle, Shavers and Spinks would all be wildly overmatched and probably stopped around the 8th round each.

Holmes, at the end of a gauntlet like this (after what I expect to be 3 easy fights) could catch Ali unmotivated and beat him up. Assuming Ali trains correctly and doesn't pick up an injury, he'll beat him on the outside in one of the best jab battles we'll ever see. However, Ali did show he could lose motivation and believe in his own hype so I'm assuming Holmes would catch him at the right time.

6-2 (4)
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Old 04-04-2012, 12:52 PM   #23
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Default Re: 60s Prime Ali in the 70s

1967 Muhammad Ali

The Frazier fight would still be close. Ali would most likely not absorb as much
damage as he did in 1971 (FOTC). But, Smokin Joe was still one tough S.O.B.
and had the perfect style to foil Muhammad Ali at any stage of his career.

Lets not forget, Joe Frazier was actually much quicker and punched much faster in 1968/1969/1970.

The 1971 Joe Frazier beats the 67' Ali, by a close decision (8-6-1)
The 1974 Joe Frazier loses to 67' Ali, by a close decision. (8-5-2)
The 1975 Joe Frazier, loses to 67' Ali, by a wide decision. (10-4-1)

In 1975, the heavier Ali punched a bit harder than the 1967 Ali.
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Old 04-05-2012, 07:24 AM   #24
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Default Re: 60s Prime Ali in the 70s

Quote:
Originally Posted by PowerPuncher View Post
With the extra stamina, faster feet, more movement, better balance, greater athleticism.
How do these fights go:

Frazier
Norton
Foreman
Young
Lyle
Shavers
Spinks
Holmes

All these fighters come over 4 years - from 1964-1968

All of them,bar Norton,Frazier and Holmes would be relatively easy for Muhammad. Although Foreman's power would always have to be respected. Ali would outspeed Holmes,and his fights with Joe and Ken would be like Norton II and Frazier II in real time,but with more daylight between Muhammad and them on the scorecards.
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Old 04-05-2012, 07:59 AM   #25
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Default Re: 60s Prime Ali in the 70s

1967 Muhammad Ali vs Larry Holmes

The 1978 thru 1983 Larry Holmes wins a close decision over 1967 Muhammad Ali.

Larry Holmes piston-like jab will neutralize Ali's jab. All fights are a close though.
Holmes by 7-6-2 in Rounds.

The 67' Ali would out-point the 84' thru 86' Holmes by a solid decision.
Ali by 9-4-2 in Rounds.
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Old 04-05-2012, 08:02 AM   #26
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Default Re: 60s Prime Ali in the 70s

The obvious answer is that he would have done better.

However if he schooled everyone in sight it could possibly make his legacy less colorful. The saga with Frazier and Foreman elevated all of their respective careers.
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Old 04-05-2012, 08:34 AM   #27
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Default Re: 60s Prime Ali in the 70s

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Originally Posted by Manassa View Post
Anyone who thinks Ali would go undefeated just because he would start out the decade at his peak is pretty much a total pothead.


Jimmy young would lose a close decision but it would be clear that Ali won this time.

Norton will always be a nightmare for Ali and their fights will always be close and I'd pick kenny to take at least one.

Foreman I fee has a better chance in this fight than the rumble in the jungle. Ali was covering up and was easily taking foreman's punches as he never really was caught completely flush. I'd expect Foreman to at least rockAli and maybe floor him if he was going to be coming forward and press the action, however I'd still favour Ali with a few shaky overs in there. Not ruling out Foreman by KO though.

Frazier much like Norton will always cause a very tough fight for Ali. Im not sure Frazier from the FOTC could be stopped from beating Ali however this would be a razor thn decision for Joe. In the other two fights however he is beaten more comfortably. 8-4 in fight number 2 and stops him or wins an 11-4 decision

Holmes is a tough one and very hard to tell how it would go. If Holmes tried to be the aggressor I think he does better as he has the stamina to trouble Ali, however would get slightly out jabbed by Ali and would lose a close but
decisive decision.

Spinks. ... no comment

Shavers gets schooled but could land a big bomb on Ali if he gets careless. Ali by wide wide wide UD but could see the canvas

Lyle I see a lot like the shavers fight but lyle boxes a bit better than shavers and maybe takes 4/5 rounds.

I think there really isn't a great difference between Ali 67 to Ali 71 as his style matches up differently to different fighters. The ring IQ makes up for the slight deterioration in his speed power and pop. I think both versions of Ali are still the best 2 H2H versions of any heavyweights, however there will always be other fighters that match up poor stylistically and no matter how good or bad of a fighter they are will always cause problems, like norton and Frazier being a prime example of this
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Old 04-05-2012, 08:57 AM   #28
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Default Re: 60s Prime Ali in the 70s

A 1971 Frazier versus the 1964 Cassius Clay ?

.... I think Frazier beats him. He's a different fighter entirely to the Sonny Liston who quit 'with a hurt shoulder'.
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Old 04-05-2012, 09:01 AM   #29
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Default Re: 60s Prime Ali in the 70s

I suspect that in 1964 Ali was not yet ready for Joe Frazier. He was still quite inexperienced and at 22 didn't have the full physical strength that he developed as his body matured over the next couple of years.

All the others I'd expect him to win fairly convincingly.
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Old 04-05-2012, 09:53 AM   #30
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Default Re: 60s Prime Ali in the 70s

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Originally Posted by Manassa View Post
Anyone who thinks Ali would go undefeated just because he would start out the decade at his peak is pretty much a total pothead.
I think a prime Ali beats all of these guys and any other Heavy in history. Pass the doobie.
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