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Old 07-17-2007, 06:31 PM   #91
JohnThomas1
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Default Re: Shall We Try And Actually Sort Some Top P4P Fighters?

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Originally Posted by mr. magoo
My answer, is that you can't.

Montell Griffin Makes Ali, Holmes, Ellis, Norton, Quarry, Shavers, Frazier and oh, just about everyone else between 1960 and 1980 look like absolute shit.

I learned this school of thought from master Senya, who is a true boxing historian, and who was so kind as to school me on what a true journeyman is...
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Old 07-17-2007, 07:20 PM   #92
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Default Re: Shall We Try And Actually Sort Some Top P4P Fighters?

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Originally Posted by sweet_scientist
You don't penalise Greb for lack of footage even though you "admire" the cautious approach of those who do penalise him in that respect.
People don't penalize him for there being no film. It's a scientific attitude that keeps people from being sure of something when they can't see it. I respect that.
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Old 07-17-2007, 07:21 PM   #93
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Default Re: Shall We Try And Actually Sort Some Top P4P Fighters?

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Originally Posted by Sweet Pea
You go by how they did for their era. Obviously it has evolved after a certain point, but it really hasn't evolved since around the 40's to tell the truth, and has gone downhill since the 80's. If someone was better for his era and accomplished more, than you rate him above someone who was more skilled but didn't accomplish more or do as much in his era. Most of rankings are based on accomplishments, but a lot is also based on head to head as well. Taylor and Camacho aren't in Tunney's league as far as accomplishments, and aren't better head to head really either.
So you believe that Whitaker and Mayweather Jr. are inferior to boxers earlier than the 1980s?
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Old 07-18-2007, 03:06 AM   #94
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Default Re: Shall We Try And Actually Sort Some Top P4P Fighters?

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People don't penalize him for there being no film. It's a scientific attitude that keeps people from being sure of something when they can't see it. I respect that.
Yeah well I believe in Greb's ability the same way scientists believe in atoms and gravity. After all, scientists haven't seen either of those things, and so can't be sure of their existence. They posit their existence as the best explanation for things that they can observe. Likewise, Greb being a badass is the best explanation one can offer in light of what we can see: his records, and some of the fighters he beat on film.
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Old 07-18-2007, 01:10 PM   #95
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Default Re: Shall We Try And Actually Sort Some Top P4P Fighters?

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Yeah well I believe in Greb's ability the same way scientists believe in atoms and gravity. After all, scientists haven't seen either of those things, and so can't be sure of their existence.
Since when does a paper record have observable effects (other than to move you to be sure of Greb)?

I am picking Greb based on educated guesswork looking at footage of his opponents and examining his record. I am uncomfortable about my choice. I know I could see film and draw a different conclusion. I was going out on a limb by saying that perhaps most would agree with that choice. I realize now that it was a bad suggestions since too many people are reluctant to pick him because they haven't seen him.

Chavez is a different type of choice, since we have seen him fight many times and we know exactly what we am dealing with. I doubt that Greb looks better than Chavez on film. Greb's opponents don't look better than Chavez or his better competition.

Chavez is a better bet for getting a consensus about the top 10 best.
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Old 07-18-2007, 01:13 PM   #96
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Default Re: Shall We Try And Actually Sort Some Top P4P Fighters?

I forgot to say (not that it matters really) that we have directly seen atoms, but I understand your point.
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Old 07-18-2007, 04:50 PM   #97
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Default Re: Shall We Try And Actually Sort Some Top P4P Fighters?

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Since when does a paper record have observable effects (other than to move you to be sure of Greb)?
The record IS the observation. That's what we have. Now call it a wild hypothesis, but given that record (which as I have said, puts Chavez's to absolute shame) the inference (to the best explanation) is that Greb was a complete animal. This is backed up all the more from another observation: watching some of the fighters he beat on film, who are themselves outstanding. Again, the inference is that Greb was an animal to beat them.


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I am picking Greb based on educated guesswork looking at footage of his opponents and examining his record. I am uncomfortable about my choice. I know I could see film and draw a different conclusion. I was going out on a limb by saying that perhaps most would agree with that choice. I realize now that it was a bad suggestions since too many people are reluctant to pick him because they haven't seen him.
Like who? Nearly every one that has an educated list puts Greb ahead of Chavez. The only one here (other than Chavez nuthuggers of course) that has Chavez higher is Tbooze, and with all due respect, he has one of the more quirky p4p lists you'll ever see (Georges Carpentier # 4? Still can't get over it T )


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Chavez is a different type of choice, since we have seen him fight many times and we know exactly what we am dealing with. I doubt that Greb looks better than Chavez on film. Greb's opponents don't look better than Chavez or his better competition.

Chavez is a better bet for getting a consensus about the top 10 best.
No one has Chavez in their top tens. You're lucky to find anyone that has Whitaker in their top tens, and he dominated Chavez. You're lucky to find an opponent that Chavez beat that would rank top 100 all time. I can't think of ANY that I'd place in the top 100. To say the likes of Rosario, Camacho and Taylor are better than the likes of Tunney, Loughran and Mike Gibbons (even on film, let alone in terms of greatness) is a joke.

Last edited by sweet_scientist; 07-18-2007 at 07:29 PM.
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Old 07-18-2007, 07:58 PM   #98
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Default Re: Shall We Try And Actually Sort Some Top P4P Fighters?

I would be surprized if nobody had Chavez in their top 10. He engaged in 37 title fights, only losing four and drawing in one. He went undefeated in his first 91 fights and he was fighting boxers like LaPorte, Lockridge, Mayweather, Rosario, Rameriz, Camacho, and Taylor. Aside from Tunney, there is no one on Greb's record who compares to Taylor or Camacho. Don't tell me Loughran or Gibbons because they don't. I have seen footage of them and they were tricky in their day, but Camacho was trickier. I thought Chavez lost to Whitaker, but it was not a dominant performance by Whitaker. Chavez won several rounds and kept it close. Besides, Chavez was slowing down in his marvelous career. He showed me that had he and Whitaker met in Chavez' prime he would have worn Whitaker down. Taylor won many more rounds against Chavez that Whitaker did, but a prime Chavez wore Taylor down.

I think the discussion has run its course. You are obviously not going to consider any of the points I am making. Later.
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Old 07-18-2007, 11:46 PM   #99
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Default Re: Shall We Try And Actually Sort Some Top P4P Fighters?

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Originally Posted by Street Lethal
I would be surprized if nobody had Chavez in their top 10. He engaged in 37 title fights, only losing four and drawing in one. He went undefeated in his first 91 fights and he was fighting boxers like LaPorte, Lockridge, Mayweather, Rosario, Rameriz, Camacho, and Taylor.
I haven't come across anyone (apart from yourself) that has him top ten, and I've seen quite a few lists over the years. As such I'd be surprised if he ever did make a top 10 all time list. There's just too many other fighters that have a more compelling case than Chavez. I think top 20 is arguable (I have him just outside it) but top 10 is a stretch.

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Aside from Tunney, there is no one on Greb's record who compares to Taylor or Camacho. Don't tell me Loughran or Gibbons because they don't. I have seen footage of them and they were tricky in their day, but Camacho was trickier.
Agree to totally disagree here.

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I thought Chavez lost to Whitaker, but it was not a dominant performance by Whitaker. Chavez won several rounds and kept it close. Besides, Chavez was slowing down in his marvelous career. He showed me that had he and Whitaker met in Chavez' prime he would have worn Whitaker down.
I must say, the way Chavez didn't win a round in the second half of the fight definitely made it look that a prime Chavez would have worn him down.

Quote:
Taylor won many more rounds against Chavez that Whitaker did, but a prime Chavez wore Taylor down.
I had Taylor and Whitaker winning about the same amount of rounds on my card, but Taylor always lacked what Whitaker had, and that's great defense. Prime Chavez would still be taking air swings against Whitaker.

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I think the discussion has run its course. You are obviously not going to consider any of the points I am making. Later.
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