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Old 07-16-2007, 11:01 AM   #16
mr. magoo
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Default Re: Willie Pep - would his fans please justify his placement in their top all time lists

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Originally Posted by China_hand_Joe
Although I have no doubt I could have outclassed those opponents, for the sake of my argument am going to use known boxer Mikkel Kessler as an example who has fought a similar level of opponent and has barely lost a round
Kessler's a great fighter to, but what does that have to do with Willie Pep not being an all time great himself. That's sort of like saying that just because Lennox Lewis was a great fighter that Muhammad Ali wasn't.

Sorry, but I don't follow your logic
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Old 07-16-2007, 11:01 AM   #17
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Default Re: Willie Pep - would his fans please justify his placement in their top all time li

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Originally Posted by sweet_scientist
Hmmm, how about because he beat AT LEAST 10 guys better than anyone Mikkel Kessler has beaten?
Ok Pep-fans, please list me Willie's 10 finest opponents
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Old 07-16-2007, 11:03 AM   #18
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Default Re: Willie Pep - would his fans please justify his placement in their top all time lists

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Originally Posted by mr. magoo
Kessler's a great fighter to, but what does that have to do with Willie Pep not being an all time great himself. That's sort of like saying that just because Lennox Lewis was a great fighter that Muhammad Ali wasn't.

Sorry, but I don't follow your logic
I am not saying Pep isn't a great fighter, just that this stuff about him being amongst the top ten of all time make little sense, he is closer to the Kessler level than he is to SRR level
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Old 07-16-2007, 11:03 AM   #19
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Default Re: Willie Pep - would his fans please justify his placement in their top all time li

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Originally Posted by China_hand_Joe
Ok Pep-fans, please list me Willie's 10 finest opponents
I'm not going to list everyone Pep's fought, but do you not consider Sandy Saddler to be a great fighter, because he's on just about every historians top featherweight list
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Old 07-16-2007, 11:04 AM   #20
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Default Re: Willie Pep - would his fans please justify his placement in their top all time lists

[quote=China_hand_Joe]
Quote:
Originally Posted by mr. magoo
Based on both video (I haven't seen as much as some here obviously, but enough to pass judgement) and also his resume - very few opponents that should belong in the ring with a world class fighter, let alone one of the 'all time best'
Of the top of my head he beat: Willie Joyce (naturally smaller but a world champ) Sandy Saddler, ex champs De Marco, Wright and Dade. All these guys are better than anyone your man has fought. I'd guess SS is about to roll out the full roll call for you.

Having seen Pep fight on film - you don't think he looks that good?
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Old 07-16-2007, 11:04 AM   #21
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Default Re: Willie Pep - would his fans please justify his placement in their top all time lists

It's really simple.

1/ Anyone that understands boxing will be able to appreciate his skillset in the ring - His fluidity, his footwork, his crisp combinations on the inside and outside, not to mention his incredible, innovative defense, and his guts which often goes overlooked. But beyond this,

He was the featherweight World Champion in 1942 at AGE 20 - That in its own, is an incredible achievement. One of the youngest linear world champions ever.

Up until 1948, he was the best featherweight in the world, with only ONE SLIPUP in over 100 bouts, and he won back his title before the years end.

THIS IS WHAT WE CALL DOMINANCE. THE MAIN YARDSTICK BY WHICH WE MEASURE GREATNESS. Willie Pep was one of the most dominant featherweights ever.

In 1949 he defeated his kryptonite Sandy Saddler, despite having been in a near-fatal plane crash and never being quite the same - Nevertheless, he still managed to get himself back to the top of the division so the Ring recognized him as the No.1 featherweight.

Up until 1953, he was still considered one of the best featherweights in the world, in this year being ranked the No.1 contender by The Ring.

He retired with 229 wins in 241 bouts. Very respectable.

Before his crash he was 135-1-1.
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Old 07-16-2007, 11:06 AM   #22
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Default Re: Willie Pep - would his fans please justify his placement in their top all time lists

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Originally Posted by China_hand_Joe
I am not saying Pep isn't a great fighter, just that this stuff about him being amongst the top ten of all time make little sense, he is closer to the Kessler level than he is to SRR level
SRR??? Are you referring to Sugar Ray Robinson? Just for the record, he wasn't a featherweight dude.
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Old 07-16-2007, 11:07 AM   #23
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Default Re: Willie Pep - would his fans please justify his placement in their top all time lists

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SRR??? Are you referring to Sugar Ray Robinson? Just for the record, he wasn't a featherweight dude.
Didn't he win Golden Gloves at feather? Not at all sure of this by the way.
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Old 07-16-2007, 11:08 AM   #24
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Default Re: Willie Pep - would his fans please justify his placement in their top all time lists

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Originally Posted by McGrain
Didn't he win Golden Gloves at feather? Not at all sure of this by the way.
he happened to beat Willie in the amateurs...
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Old 07-16-2007, 11:09 AM   #25
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Default Re: Willie Pep - would his fans please justify his placement in their top all time lists

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Originally Posted by McGrain
Didn't he win Golden Gloves at feather? Not at all sure of this by the way.
2 or 3 times
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Old 07-16-2007, 11:09 AM   #26
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Default Re: Willie Pep - would his fans please justify his placement in their top all time lists

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Originally Posted by McGrain
Didn't he win Golden Gloves at feather? Not at all sure of this by the way.
I don't what he did in the amateurs, but as a career pro, he mainly did most of his work at welterweight and middleweight.
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Old 07-16-2007, 11:11 AM   #27
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Default Re: Willie Pep - would his fans please justify his placement in their top all time lists

Quote:
Originally Posted by Nemesis
he happened to beat Willie in the amateurs...
Outclassed him from what I've heard
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Old 07-16-2007, 11:12 AM   #28
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Default Re: Willie Pep - would his fans please justify his placement in their top all time lists

Can one of the Pep-perts list his top 10 opponents please, it isn't a huge number, but will help me immensely in corralating my arguments
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Old 07-16-2007, 11:14 AM   #29
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Default Re: Willie Pep - would his fans please justify his placement in their top all time li

Here's 8 fighters better than Beyer and Mundine:

Sandy Saddler
Manuel Ortiz
Chalky Wright
Willie Joyce
Paddy Demarco
Ray Famechon
Sal Bartolo
Jackie Graves
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Old 07-16-2007, 11:14 AM   #30
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Default Re: Willie Pep - would his fans please justify his placement in their top all time lists

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Originally Posted by China_hand_Joe
Can one of the Pep-perts list his top 10 opponents please, it isn't a huge number, but will help me immensely in corralating my arguments
That's no small task conisdering the number of guys he fought. If you like I could list some of the good fighters tha he fought?

In the meantime, why don't you make a list of the fighters that Pep avoided. Unless your argument does not centre around the fact that Pep failed to completely dominate his era?

Also, i'd love an answer to my question about your view of Pep on film.

EDIT: Won't bother making the list Sweet Scientist has done lovely one. You could maybe still make the list of guys he avoided and tell me what you think of him on film?
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