Boxing  

Forum Home Boxing Forum European British Classic Aussie MMA Training
Go Back   Boxing News 24 Forum > Boxing > Classic Boxing Forum


Reply
 
Thread Tools
Old 07-16-2007, 01:12 PM   #76
Street Lethal
Gatekeeper
ESB Full Member
 
Join Date: Jul 2007
Posts: 493
vCash: 1000
Default Re: Willie Pep - would his fans please justify his placement in their top all time lists

Quote:
Originally Posted by Manassa
Well I suppose you're right. Pep never had much substance, he could only manage a streak of 135-1-1.
Everytime I see that record I am amazed. And he did it against excellent opposition.
Street Lethal is offline  Top
Reply With Quote
Sponsored Links
Old 07-16-2007, 01:14 PM   #77
China_hand_Joe
Nostradamus
ESB Addict
 
Join Date: Sep 2006
Posts: 4,107
vCash: 563
Default Re: Willie Pep - would his fans please justify his placement in their top all time lists

Can we agree for a man that holds a victory over Saddler, at least 180 of Peps wins are worth nothing individually -questionmark- Any competent fighter could beat them, Peps record may as well have been 50-11-1
China_hand_Joe is offline  Top
Reply With Quote
Old 07-16-2007, 01:15 PM   #78
China_hand_Joe
Nostradamus
ESB Addict
 
Join Date: Sep 2006
Posts: 4,107
vCash: 563
Default Re: Willie Pep - would his fans please justify his placement in their top all time lists

Quote:
Originally Posted by McGrain
He did beat Lacey.
You can make a case for Joe being all-time top 10 based on that performance alone -fullstop-
China_hand_Joe is offline  Top
Reply With Quote
Old 07-16-2007, 01:19 PM   #79
McGrain
Diamond Dog
East Side VIP
 
Join Date: Mar 2007
Posts: 37,063
vCash: 1000
Default Re: Willie Pep - would his fans please justify his placement in their top all time lists

Quote:
Originally Posted by China_hand_Joe
Can we agree for a man that holds a victory over Saddler, at least 180 of Peps wins are worth nothing individually -questionmark- Any competent fighter could beat them, Peps record may as well have been 50-11-1
Let's say, for a moment, that you are right and that some of Pep's opponents were as bad as you say. Poor fighters who had just turned pro. Or better if that's what you mean, I don't know. Do you appreciate the mental and physical sharpness required to fight as frequently as he did without dropping losses to these fighters? Who are actually (for the most part ) better than you think?

Your hero is a good fighter, but an example of a fighter who would be little more than a footnote (if that) had he fought during this era.
McGrain is online now  Top
Reply With Quote
Old 07-16-2007, 01:22 PM   #80
McGrain
Diamond Dog
East Side VIP
 
Join Date: Mar 2007
Posts: 37,063
vCash: 1000
Default Re: Willie Pep - would his fans please justify his placement in their top all time lists

Quote:
Originally Posted by China_hand_Joe
You can make a case for Joe being all-time top 10 based on that performance alone -fullstop-

Of course, it's impossible to tell if you are serious or not, but I don't think that that is a claim as ridiculous as some would. I think appraising a fighter on film and then comparing him to guys who have much better scalps is ok.

But if you're judging fighters specifically on how the they look on film (the only way it is possible to judge Calzaghe in serious company his opposition is so poor) Calzaghe is way below Pep. Way below.
McGrain is online now  Top
Reply With Quote
Old 07-16-2007, 01:22 PM   #81
Nemesis
Contender
ESB Senior Member
 
Join Date: Dec 2005
Location: nil satis nisi optimum
Posts: 825
vCash: 75
Default Re: Willie Pep - would his fans please justify his placement in their top all time li

I have a question for all the Pep fans out their, do you mark him down for the bouts he quit in (ala liston) or the ones he took a dive in?

Seems to be far too much double standards going on here
Nemesis is offline  Top
Reply With Quote
Old 07-16-2007, 01:28 PM   #82
McGrain
Diamond Dog
East Side VIP
 
Join Date: Mar 2007
Posts: 37,063
vCash: 1000
Default Re: Willie Pep - would his fans please justify his placement in their top all time li

Quote:
Originally Posted by Nemesis
I have a question for all the Pep fans out their, do you mark him down for the bouts he quit in (ala liston) or the ones he took a dive in?

Seems to be far too much double standards going on here
I just try to ignore them. Like a proper grown up. What can you do, really?
McGrain is online now  Top
Reply With Quote
Old 07-16-2007, 01:29 PM   #83
Drew101
Champion
East Side Guru
 
Join Date: Feb 2005
Location: "...The Land of Dixon and Langford..."
Posts: 8,148
vCash: 0
Default Re: Willie Pep - would his fans please justify his placement in their top all time lists

Some of the champions that Willie Pep defeated during his 135-1-1 run:

Joey Archibald (former featherweight champion)
Chalky Wright x4
Sal Bartolo x3
Phil Terranova
Paddy Demarco
Manuel Ortiz
Harold Dade
Sandy Saddler
Jackie Wilson

And, a short list of some of the rated contenders that he defeated...

Willie Joyce
Charley Riley
Humberto Sierra
Lefty Lachance
Carlos Chavez
Teddy "Red Top" Davis x3
Ray Famechon
Eddie Compo
Jackie Graves
Jock Leslie
Armand Savoie

Look at it this way...out of his eleven losses, one came to a HOF caliber lightweight (Angott), three came to Saddler (who is most certainly a Top 3 featherweight), two of the losses may well have been dives (Perez and Collins), and the rest occurred when he was well past his prime.

That's why he was an ATG.
Drew101 is online now  Top
Reply With Quote
Old 07-16-2007, 01:31 PM   #84
Drew101
Champion
East Side Guru
 
Join Date: Feb 2005
Location: "...The Land of Dixon and Langford..."
Posts: 8,148
vCash: 0
Default Re: Willie Pep - would his fans please justify his placement in their top all time li

Quote:
Originally Posted by Nemesis
I have a question for all the Pep fans out their, do you mark him down for the bouts he quit in (ala liston) or the ones he took a dive in?

Seems to be far too much double standards going on here
Absolutely. You have to take all of that into consideration. And, taking that into consideration, he still makes my #1 slot at 126lbs.
Drew101 is online now  Top
Reply With Quote
Old 07-16-2007, 01:32 PM   #85
Nemesis
Contender
ESB Senior Member
 
Join Date: Dec 2005
Location: nil satis nisi optimum
Posts: 825
vCash: 75
Default Re: Willie Pep - would his fans please justify his placement in their top all time li

Quote:
Originally Posted by McGrain
I just try to ignore them. Like a proper grown up. What can you do, really?
You've just gone down in my estimation

you even admitted to marking Duran down for what he did in Montreal, yet when Pep does it, it is different???????
Nemesis is offline  Top
Reply With Quote
Old 07-16-2007, 01:34 PM   #86
Sonny's jab
Guest
 
Posts: n/a
vCash:
Default Re: Willie Pep - would his fans please justify his placement in their top all time lists

Quote:
Originally Posted by McGrain
Let's say, for a moment, that you are right and that some of Pep's opponents were as bad as you say. Poor fighters who had just turned pro. Or better if that's what you mean, I don't know. Do you appreciate the mental and physical sharpness required to fight as frequently as he did without dropping losses to these fighters? Who are actually (for the most part ) better than you think?
I think China Hand Joe actually has a real solid point IF most of the opposition can be assessed as being of very low quality.

Buck Smith was something like 164-6 at one point.
Jerry "Wimpy" Halstead and Eric "Butterbean" Esch boasted some impressive numbers too.
Lamar Clark scored 44 straight KOs.
These guys were clubfighters or tank town sideshow attractions. Smith is good enough to be called a "journeyman" but really not much else.

This reality shows us we must approach plain numerical records with caution, and that they mean very little in themselves.

Of course, Pep was a lot better than those guys whichever way you look at it, but if his going 131-1-1 is being used as a major cornerstone to his greatness then it needs re-examining.

No one really cares too much that Jack Dempsey might have KO'd about 100, 200 (or 300?) additional "opponents" in "meaningless" exhibitions, and if Pep's official record was padded with a load of utter tomato cans I dont see why it should mean so much more.
 Top
Reply With Quote
Old 07-16-2007, 01:34 PM   #87
Nemesis
Contender
ESB Senior Member
 
Join Date: Dec 2005
Location: nil satis nisi optimum
Posts: 825
vCash: 75
Default Re: Willie Pep - would his fans please justify his placement in their top all time li

Quote:
Originally Posted by Drew101
Absolutely. You have to take all of that into consideration. And, taking that into consideration, he still makes my #1 slot at 126lbs.
Drew, as Ive said H2H and what I've seen on film, he looks and appears to be great, and I too have in my top 3 at Featherweight, but he doesnt crack my top 10 p4p
Nemesis is offline  Top
Reply With Quote
Old 07-16-2007, 01:34 PM   #88
Manassa
-
ESB Addict
 
Join Date: Apr 2007
Location: ESB since '05
Posts: 3,883
vCash: 75
Default Re: Willie Pep - would his fans please justify his placement in their top all time li

Quote:
Originally Posted by Nemesis
You've just gone down in my estimation

you even admitted to marking Duran down for what he did in Montreal, yet when Pep does it, it is different???????
Duran was Mexican, so he deserves to be put down for quitting. Well, he wasn't Mexican, but close enough to be given harsh criticism.
Manassa is offline  Top
Reply With Quote
Old 07-16-2007, 01:34 PM   #89
China_hand_Joe
Nostradamus
ESB Addict
 
Join Date: Sep 2006
Posts: 4,107
vCash: 563
Default Re: Willie Pep - would his fans please justify his placement in their top all time lists

Quote:
Originally Posted by McGrain
Let's say, for a moment, that you are right and that some of Pep's opponents were as bad as you say. Poor fighters who had just turned pro. Or better if that's what you mean, I don't know. Do you appreciate the mental and physical sharpness required to fight as frequently as he did without dropping losses to these fighters? Who are actually (for the most part ) better than you think?

Your hero is a good fighter, but an example of a fighter who would be little more than a footnote (if that) had he fought during this era.
I will be back later, to filter Peps record and make some points about a common Pep *thing* that his fans like to use -fullstop- I have a lot of respect for Pep, take into consideration how harsh I am about some about some other old-timer legends -fullstop-
China_hand_Joe is offline  Top
Reply With Quote
Old 07-16-2007, 01:35 PM   #90
McGrain
Diamond Dog
East Side VIP
 
Join Date: Mar 2007
Posts: 37,063
vCash: 1000
Default Re: Willie Pep - would his fans please justify his placement in their top all time li

Quote:
Originally Posted by Nemesis
You've just gone down in my estimation

you even admitted to marking Duran down for what he did in Montreal, yet when Pep does it, it is different???????

Taking a dive and actually quitting are a little different in cirumstance, no?
McGrain is online now  Top
Reply With Quote
Reply

Boxing News 24 Forum > Boxing > Classic Boxing Forum

Thread Tools

Posting Rules
You may not post new threads
You may not post replies
You may not post attachments
You may not edit your posts

BB code is On
Smilies are On
[IMG] code is Off
HTML code is Off

Forum Jump





All times are GMT -4. The time now is 11:45 AM.


Powered by vBulletin® Version 3.8.0
Copyright ©2000 - 2014, Jelsoft Enterprises Ltd.
Boxing News 24 Forum 2013