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Old 07-16-2007, 02:37 PM   #91
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Default Re: Willie Pep - would his fans please justify his placement in their top all time lists

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Originally Posted by Sonny's jab
I think China Hand Joe actually has a real solid point IF most of the opposition can be assessed as being of very low quality.

Buck Smith was something like 164-6 at one point.
Jerry "Wimpy" Halstead and Eric "Butterbean" Esch boasted some impressive numbers too.
Lamar Clark scored 44 straight KOs.
These guys were clubfighters or tank town sideshow attractions. Smith is good enough to be called a "journeyman" but really not much else.

This reality shows us we must approach plain numerical records with caution, and that they mean very little in themselves.

Of course, Pep was a lot better than those guys whichever way you look at it, but if his going 131-1-1 is being used as a major cornerstone to his greatness then it needs re-examining.

No one really cares too much that Jack Dempsey might have KO'd about 100, 200 (or 300?) additional "opponents" in "meaningless" exhibitions, and if Pep's official record was padded with a load of utter tomato cans I dont see why it should mean so much more.

Exactly, ive made similar posts/points in the past and only Drew can come up with a solid enough argument to counteract those claims.

some people seem far too content with myth, rather than digging a little deeper
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Old 07-16-2007, 02:37 PM   #92
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Default Re: Willie Pep - would his fans please justify his placement in their top all time li

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Originally Posted by McGrain
Taking a dive and actually quitting are a little different in cirumstance, no?
he's done both what's your point?
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Old 07-16-2007, 02:38 PM   #93
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Default Re: Willie Pep - would his fans please justify his placement in their top all time li

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Originally Posted by Nemesis
he's done both what's your point?
Only that a dive is different to quitting.
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Old 07-16-2007, 02:39 PM   #94
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Default Re: Willie Pep - would his fans please justify his placement in their top all time li

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Originally Posted by Manassa
Duran was Mexican, so he deserves to be put down for quitting. Well, he wasn't Mexican, but close enough to be given harsh criticism.
So Freitas should not be criticised for what he done against Corrales because he's not Mexican?
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Old 07-16-2007, 02:43 PM   #95
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Default Re: Willie Pep - would his fans please justify his placement in their top all time lists

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Originally Posted by McGrain
He did beat Lacey.

And thats still got nothing to do with a willie pep thread.
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Old 07-16-2007, 02:45 PM   #96
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Default Re: Willie Pep - would his fans please justify his placement in their top all time lists

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And thats still got nothing to do with a willie pep thread.
Just having a little fun, Joe.

Last edited by scurlaruntings; 03-10-2006 at 09:11 AM.
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Old 07-16-2007, 02:45 PM   #97
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Default Re: Willie Pep - would his fans please justify his placement in their top all time li

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Originally Posted by Nemesis
Drew, as Ive said H2H and what I've seen on film, he looks and appears to be great, and I too have in my top 3 at Featherweight, but he doesnt crack my top 10 p4p
Fair enough...but, from what I've gathered from your arguements, that has less to to with Pep's ability, and more to do with the fact that there have been a lot of sensational fighters in the history of the sport.

Still, one would find it tough to believe that there have been, say, twenty fighters who have been better and more dominant against their contemporaries than Pep was at his best.
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Old 07-16-2007, 02:46 PM   #98
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Default Re: Willie Pep - would his fans please justify his placement in their top all time li

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Originally Posted by Nemesis
So Freitas should not be criticised for what he done against Corrales because he's not Mexican?
You got it
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Old 07-16-2007, 02:48 PM   #99
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Default Re: Willie Pep - would his fans please justify his placement in their top all time lists

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Originally Posted by Sonny's jab
I think China Hand Joe actually has a real solid point IF most of the opposition can be assessed as being of very low quality.
Well, you've seen Drew's excellent list contianing many excellent fighters. This will be the cream. I, for one, am not to bothered about the standard of opposition - unless it can be shown to me that Pep dodged fighters whilst fighting 10, 17 fights a year, whatever it was.

If he was fighting the best around as well as sharing an era with, and beating, some excellent fighters i'm quite happy with his standing inside the top 20 all time p4p.
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Old 07-16-2007, 02:53 PM   #100
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Default Re: Willie Pep - would his fans please justify his placement in their top all time li

Quote:
Originally Posted by Drew101
Fair enough...but, from what I've gathered from your arguements, that has less to to with Pep's ability, and more to do with the fact that there have been a lot of sensational fighters in the history of the sport.

Still, one would find it tough to believe that there have been, say, twenty fighters who have been better and more dominant against their contemporaries than Pep was at his best.
Drew, we have had our disagreements in the past on this subject, but my rankings weigh heavily on who a fighter did beat rather than who a could beat, I said a couple of weeks ago that I rank Pep in the 11-20 range rather than the top ten, solely for the following reasons: -
- there is at least 10 fighters who have better resume's
- he couldnt do anything of note at a higher weight
- it is widely accepted that he was known to have taken a dive
- he quit in a world title fight


Do you mark him down at all for the last two points above?
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Old 07-16-2007, 02:56 PM   #101
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Default Re: Willie Pep - would his fans please justify his placement in their top all time li

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Originally Posted by Manassa
You got it
sorry I couldnt find an emoticon for "thumbs down", so this will have to do...

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Old 07-16-2007, 02:57 PM   #102
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Default Re: Willie Pep - would his fans please justify his placement in their top all time li

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Originally Posted by Nemesis
sorry I couldnt find an emoticon for "thumbs down", so this will have to do...

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Why should I criticize a caucasian boxer for quitting?
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Old 07-16-2007, 03:05 PM   #103
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Default Re: Willie Pep - would his fans please justify his placement in their top all time lists

I have Pep number 5 on my list.

1. Ali
2. Robinson
3. Armstrong
4. Gans
5. Pep

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Old 07-16-2007, 03:54 PM   #104
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Default Re: Willie Pep - would his fans please justify his placement in their top all time lists

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Originally Posted by Sweet Pea
Well I have read through the thread and Joe literally did not even attempt to come up with any way to discredit Pep. He basically said "His competition sucked" and when someone retalitaed by giving his competition he didn't pay attention and said they were cab-drivers and made ridiculous statements about how he could beat them. Ridiculous thread.

Funny though.
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Old 07-16-2007, 04:05 PM   #105
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Default Re: Willie Pep - would his fans please justify his placement in their top all time lists

Quote:
Originally Posted by Sweet Pea
Well I have read through the thread and Joe literally did not even attempt to come up with any way to discredit Pep. He basically said "His competition sucked" and when someone retalitaed by giving his competition he didn't pay attention and said they were cab-drivers and made ridiculous statements about how he could beat them. Ridiculous thread.
CHJ jokes in a half serious way, where he is making a point but trying to be funny at the same time. some of the points brought up by myself and Sonny's Jab are valid, the whole point of the classic forum is not only reminisce over great fighters of the past but to look a little bit deeper and determine whether commonly held opinions are right.

His resume is good but there are better, alot better.
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