Willie Pep - would his fans please justify his placement in their top all time lists

[McGrain]

Originally Posted by Nemesis

His resume is good but there are better, alot better.

I agree; but i've still to hear about the fighters Pep ducked.

Do you see what I mean?

[Nemesis]

Originally Posted by McGrain

I agree; but i've still to hear about the fighters Pep ducked.

Do you see what I mean?

I wouldnt say Pep ducked anyone at all, but neither did he show any inclination in taking on the elite lightweights after being 'handled' by the clutch. He wouldnt have stood a chance in hell of beating the likes of Montgomery, Jack and Williams at Lightweight.

ps: BTW Monzon & Hagler also get penalised for lack of fighting opponents in a higher weight classes. It shows how a fighter reacts when he is not in his comfort zone.

[mr. magoo]

He wouldnt have stood a chance in hell of beating the likes of Montgomery, Jack and Williams at Lightweight.

ps: BTW Monzon & Hagler also get penalised for lack of fighting opponents in a higher weight classes. It shows how a fighter reacts when he is not in his comfort zone.

Personally, I don't think that a fighter should have it held against him for not taking fights in other weight classes. For those fighters who did it, they deserve extra credit, but I don't think it should detract from a legacy.

[McGrain]

Originally Posted by Nemesis

I wouldnt say Pep ducked anyone at all, but neither did he show any inclination in taking on the elite lightweights after being 'handled' by the clutch. He wouldnt have stood a chance in hell of beating the likes of Montgomery, Jack and Williams at Lightweight.

See, if a guy fights the best of his era, dominates it that's a great start. If he looks tremendous on film - this guy has #1 footwork and doesn't load any punch that i've seen him throw - that's another great step. If he has an ATG on his resume i'm almost hooked regardless.

ps: BTW Monzon & Hagler also get penalised for lack of fighting opponents in a higher weight classes. It shows how a fighter reacts when he is not in his comfort zone.

This is true. Whilst I don't want to sink any further in your estimation ( ) i just think that there are some guys who can do it and some guys who can't. I tend to be more leniant on the guys who didn't do it when there were less weights to hop to, if you see what I mean.

So whilst it was very important to me that Hopkins got of his arse and had a fight at a higher weight, it doesn't bother me too much that Pep didn't dominate a higher weight.

p.s - you ever seen anyone put an emoticon in brackets before?

[mr. magoo]

This reality shows us we must approach plain numerical records with caution, and that they mean very little in themselves.

I don't care if the guy fought his own sister 62 times consecutively. To start your career off 62-0, is damn impressive if you ask me.

[McGrain]

Originally Posted by mr. magoo

I don't care if the guy fought his own sister 62 times consecutively. To start your career off 62-0, is damn impressive if you ask me.

If I fought my sister 62 time on the trot i would expect to pick up 9 wins and a draw.

But the point is well made. 62 consecutive professional bouts. That's mind boggling.

[Nemesis]

Originally Posted by McGrain

See, if a guy fights the best of his era, dominates it that's a great start. If he looks tremendous on film - this guy has #1 footwork and doesn't load any punch that i've seen him throw - that's another great step. If he has an ATG on his resume i'm almost hooked regardless.

Agreed

This is true. Whilst I don't want to sink any further in your estimation ( ) i just think that there are some guys who can do it and some guys who can't. I tend to be more leniant on the guys who didn't do it when there were less weights to hop to, if you see what I mean.

Well thats the thing with the three fighters in question, they all dominated, but refused to take fights at higher weights where they wouldnt be odds on favourites to win

So whilst it was very important to me that Hopkins got of his arse and had a fight at a higher weight, it doesn't bother me too much that Pep didn't dominate a higher weight.

p.s - you ever seen anyone put an emoticon in brackets before?

Nah the emoticons in brackets, dont work ()

[mr. magoo]

Originally Posted by McGrain

If I fought my sister 62 time on the trot i would expect to pick up 9 wins and a draw.

But the point is well made. 62 consecutive professional bouts. That's mind boggling.

Agreed. Pep was a master. There's no if's and's or but's about it.

[Duodenum]

Hmmmm.....I wonder what Pep's record might have been without that plane crash (or his military service due to WW II).

[McGrain]

Originally Posted by Duodenum

Hmmmm.....I wonder what Pep's record might have been without that plane crash (or his military service due to WW II).

I guess we'll never know. But i'd be prepared to speculate that without these two events the argument would be about whether or not he should be in the top 5 rather than 10. Possible.

[China_hand_Joe]

One excuse 'Pep-perts' blurt out to defend Pep is "Willie was never the same after that plane-crash" - the crash may have effected him very minorly at worst, what really had an effect on Pep was a step up in competition
Even the champions he faced pre-1947 were amongst the worse champions in history - I have no doubt that if I'd lived in that era, you'd be listing me as one of Peps credible pre '47 championship winning opponents -fullstop-

[mr. magoo]

Originally Posted by China_hand_Joe

One excuse 'Pep-perts' blurt out to defend Pep is "Willie was never the same after that plane-crash" - the crash may have effected him very minorly at worst, what really had an effect on Pep was a step up in competition
Even the champions he faced pre-1947 were amongst the worse champions in history - I have no doubt that if I'd lived in that era, you'd be listing me as one of Peps credible pre '47 championship winning opponents -fullstop-

Revolver?

[China_hand_Joe]

The like of Barrera, Pacman, JMM and Guzman could all give Pep more than fits and that is just from the current crop -fullstop-

[mcvey]

Originally Posted by China_hand_Joe

I am confident I will be able to shoot down this myth about Pep being an upper end all time legend once and for all, I don't even need to resort to comparing him to Joe Calzaghe that is too easy -fullstop- -newparagraph- So lets hear it Pep admirers, why should this one weight champion be regarded nearly as highly as the likes of Robinson -questionmark-

Maybe the question should be why isnt Sandy Saddler in there?

[Drew101]

Originally Posted by Nemesis

Drew, we have had our disagreements in the past on this subject, but my rankings weigh heavily on who a fighter did beat rather than who a could beat, I said a couple of weeks ago that I rank Pep in the 11-20 range rather than the top ten, solely for the following reasons: -
- there is at least 10 fighters who have better resume's
- he couldnt do anything of note at a higher weight
- it is widely accepted that he was known to have taken a dive
- he quit in a world title fight


Do you mark him down at all for the last two points above?

- Maybe. But, against a top-tier featherweight class in the 40's, Pep was a dominant champion for a lengthy period of time.

- Well, he couldn't do anything against Angott, but he had a difficult syyle. Still, the fact that he defeated a top lightweight contender in Willie Joyce indicates that he might have fared reasonably well against other fighters in the higher weight class. Neither here nor there, really...Pep was always a featherweight, and he generally concentrated upon cleaing out that weight division.

- It probably should be noted that those dives occurred in the twilight of his career, but they have to be taken into consideration. In the vast majority of cases, Pep's fights were on the level...and he won most of them.

- He did, and the fact that he was leading on the cards doesn't help either. Whether Pep threw the fight, or was just getting frustrated with Saddler is a tough call, but, within the context of Pep's entire career, it really serves as a momentary blemish.

Like you, I tend to base my rankings based on what a fighter did at the weight. Pep's resume at featherweight is outstanding...simple as that. If you think ten fighters were better in history, then that's acceptable. But, that says more about the ability of those fighters, and less about Pep's ability.