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View Poll Results: Do you agree with them?
I agree with them 6 16.22%
I disagree with them 31 83.78%
Voters: 37. You may not vote on this poll

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Old 04-27-2008, 12:20 PM   #16
mr. magoo
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Default Re: Larry Holmes was in his prime when Tyson beat him(Read the post first)

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Originally Posted by teeto
I disagreed on the poll, but Holmes never beat an elite HW in his prime, i rate Holmes as 1 of the very finest HWs ever, HE is an elite HW
I think he defeated some guys who came very close to being elite. Although Ken Norton was past it, he was certainly still in phenomenal shape and coming off the best run of his career, beating some very good fighters, possibly including his rubber match with Ali. Holmes also defeated Earnie Shavers who had compiled 5 strait KO wins since there first match, including a first rounder over Norton and another KO over tough Roy Williams. Cooney in hindsite wasn't ready for Holmes, but he was certainly looking fairly elite going into that match. Weaver might have been a no name, but his career was just taking off in 1979, and would be in my opinion the second best heavyweight in the division over the following 2-3 years. In his comeback, Holmes beat an undefeated Ray Mercer who had brought home the gold, and beat two unbeaten fighters in Morrison (28-0) and Damiani (27-0).

Opinions differ when it comes to the quality of Holmes' opposition, and while I agree, he could have selected some different opponents at various points in his career, I still feel that he had a nice collection of wins over some guys who might have qualified as elite, or at least coming close....
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Old 04-27-2008, 12:24 PM   #17
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Default Re: Larry Holmes was in his prime when Tyson beat him(Read the post first)

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Originally Posted by mr. magoo
I think he defeated some guys who came very close to being elite. Although Ken Norton was past it, he was certainly still in phenomenal shape and coming off the best run of his career, beating some very good fighters, possibly including his rubber match with Ali. Holmes also defeated Earnie Shavers who had compiled 5 strait KO wins since there first match, including a first rounder over Norton and another KO over tough Roy Williams. Cooney in hindsite wasn't ready for Holmes, but he was certainly looking fairly elite going into that match. Weaver might have been a no name, but his career was just taking off in 1979, and would be in my opinion the second best heavyweight in the division over the following 2-3 years. In his comeback, Holmes beat an undefeated Ray Mercer who had brought home the gold, and beat two unbeaten fighters in Morrison (28-0) and Damiani (27-0).

Opinions differ when it comes to the quality of Holmes' opposition, and while I agree, he could have selected some different opponents at various points in his career, I still feel that he had a nice collection of wins over some guys who might have qualified as elite, or at least coming close....
Like i said before, he is one of the very best HWs ever, he is an elite fighter, and its not a criticism of him because he was not at fault , but he never beat an elite fighter in his prime
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Old 04-27-2008, 12:30 PM   #18
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Default Re: Larry Holmes was in his prime when Tyson beat him(Read the post first)

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Originally Posted by teeto
Like i said before, he is one of the very best HWs ever, he is an elite fighter, and its not a criticism of him because he was not at fault , but he never beat an elite fighter in his prime
I agee with your position that he was great, but I guess where I'm having some differences here, is what you consider to be an elite fighter. If you're suggesting that an elite fighter needs to be on par par with a prime Frazier, or peak Tyson, or unbeaten Foreman, then I can see your point. But, I don't necessarily think that a fighter needs to reach those perameters to be considered elite. Norton was an all time great, and coming off the best run of his career, albeit a tad past his best. Some of the other guys I listed come close too. So what exactly is an elite fighter by your standards?
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Old 04-27-2008, 12:34 PM   #19
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Default Re: Larry Holmes was in his prime when Tyson beat him(Read the post first)

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Originally Posted by mr. magoo
I agee with your position that he was great, but I guess where I'm having some differences here, is what you consider to be an elite fighter. If you're suggesting that an elite fighter needs to be on par par with a prime Frazier, or peak Tyson, or unbeaten Foreman, then I can see your point. But, I don't necessarily think that a fighter needs to reach those perameters to be considered elite. Norton was an all time great, and coming off the best run of his career, albeit a tad past his best. Some of the other guys I listed come close too. So what exactly is an elite fighter by your standards?
Yea , its probably just a difference in the usage of the word 'elite' between us. I use the term 'ATG' for fighters such as Norton, but 'elite' is a word i reserve for the very best fighters/achievers in a division's history. It was a really, really good/great win, just not over an elite fighter in my opinion.

I think we're more or less on the same page to be honest!
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Old 04-27-2008, 12:40 PM   #20
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Default Re: Larry Holmes was in his prime when Tyson beat him(Read the post first)

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Originally Posted by teeto
Yea , its probably just a difference in the usage of the word 'elite' between us. I use the term 'ATG' for fighters such as Norton, but 'elite' is a word i reserve for the very best fighters/achievers in a division's history. It was a really, really good/great win, just not over an elite fighter in my opinion.

I think we're more or less on the same page to be honest!
Fair enough, but if we're going to set such high standards for what an elite fighter truly is, then I guess its fair to say that Tyson never beat someone of that description either. Spinks, Tucker, Thomas, Berbick and Ruddock were certainly very good opponents, but I can't see them meeting your criteria as elite fighters.
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Old 04-27-2008, 01:11 PM   #21
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Default Re: Larry Holmes was in his prime when Tyson beat him(Read the post first)

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Originally Posted by mr. magoo
Fair enough, but if we're going to set such high standards for what an elite fighter truly is, then I guess its fair to say that Tyson never beat someone of that description either. Spinks, Tucker, Thomas, Berbick and Ruddock were certainly very good opponents, but I can't see them meeting your criteria as elite fighters.
I do rate Spinks as an elite fighter personally, only at 175 though!! But yea, Tyson never beat an elite HW either
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Old 04-27-2008, 01:50 PM   #22
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Default Re: Larry Holmes was in his prime when Tyson beat him(Read the post first)

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Originally Posted by teeto
I do rate Spinks as an elite fighter personally, only at 175 though!! But yea, Tyson never beat an elite HW either

Disagree,

Pinklon Thomas was still an elite fighter at the the Tyson fought him.

Razor Ruddock was an elite fighter, remember he was favored to come on top in a tournament consisting of himself, Evander Holyfield, Riddick Bowe and Lennox Lewis.

Micheal Spinks was an elite fighter at the time he met Tyson. He didnt have much done at HW but after beating Holmes twice and the Cooney fight he was considered a top fighter.
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Old 04-27-2008, 03:23 PM   #23
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Default Re: Larry Holmes was in his prime when Tyson beat him(Read the post first)

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Originally Posted by slicksouthpaw16
Wow, i guess you really don't know anything about boxing. Answer the question or leave, please. I can't waste my time, . These people need to be called out on their foolishness.
Holmes in his prime when he meet Tyson? Not a chance. At least 3 years past his prime, plus mix in a layoff.

Whoever thinks Holmes was in his prime for Tyson is a fool or has an ax to grind.
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Old 04-27-2008, 03:42 PM   #24
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Default Re: Larry Holmes was in his prime when Tyson beat him(Read the post first)

A question to those of you who believe Holmes was in his prime: Do you also believe that Tyson was in his prime when he met Lennox Lewis? He was after all younger in 2002 than Holmes was in 1988 and didn't come immidiately from lay-off.
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Old 04-27-2008, 04:19 PM   #25
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Default Re: Larry Holmes was in his prime when Tyson beat him(Read the post first)

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Originally Posted by Sweet Pea
Chucky just started a thread about who we want banned, and I was going to offer you up because of stuff like this. You twist shit around and straight up LIE like you're doing right now. When the **** did I ever say Holmes was in his prime? ****ing troll idiot. The post you quited of mine didn't back up what you said at all. You're the ****ing idiot that was arguing that Mercer was better than anyone Tyson had ever beaten, when Tyson beat the Holmes that beat Mercer 4 YEARS PRIOR. ****ing idiot. Ban this lying piece of shit.
Look like this kid is really mad about what he said. Lighten up son, this is the internet. If you are really worrying about you credability(which have went down) then you are taking this too seriously. In this post, you are again completely ignoring the fact that Holmes actually had 5 tune ups for Ray Mercer. He was inactive and out for 2 years at the time he fought Tyson. I swear this kid will not understand that. You can start your little 5 year old ban list but now you know to think before you post.
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Old 04-27-2008, 04:37 PM   #26
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Default Re: Larry Holmes was in his prime when Tyson beat him(Read the post first)

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Originally Posted by Rumsfeld
I would favor a prime Holmes over a prime Tyson or a prime Ali. I think his style meshes well in such match-ups.

So no, Holmes was quite clearly not in his prime when he fought Tyson.

Regardless, I still love when Holmes cam out (was it the 4th round?) jabbing like a machine, in vintage Holmes form.

Co-sign this whole post from the top all the way down to holmes jabbing like a machine . . . he was dancing, too.
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Old 04-27-2008, 04:48 PM   #27
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Default Re: Larry Holmes was in his prime when Tyson beat him(Read the post first)

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Originally Posted by slicksouthpaw16
Look like this kid is really mad about what he said. Lighten up son, this is the internet. If you are really worrying about you credability(which have went down) then you are taking this too seriously. In this post, you are again completely ignoring the fact that Holmes actually had 5 tune ups for Ray Mercer. He was inactive and out for 2 years at the time he fought Tyson. I swear this kid will not understand that. You can start your little 5 year old ban list but now you know to think before you post.
You ****ing lied about what I said and started a thread about it. I never said Holmes was at his peak you ****ing troll piece of shit, point me to where I did. Goddamn you have to be the most mind-numbing person I've ever argued with. You're a fraud and a liar.
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Old 04-27-2008, 05:14 PM   #28
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Default Re: Larry Holmes was in his prime when Tyson beat him(Read the post first)

The best fighters who were as close to their primes as possible who Tyson beat. Thomas, Tucker, and Ruddock. Berbick would probably squeeze himself in there as well.

Holmes was past his prime and Spinks was a light-heavyweight.
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Old 04-27-2008, 05:20 PM   #29
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Default Re: Larry Holmes was in his prime when Tyson beat him(Read the post first)

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Originally Posted by Robbi
The best fighters who were as close to their primes as possible who Tyson beat. Thomas, Tucker, and Ruddock. Berbick would probably squeeze himself in there as well.

Holmes was past his prime and Spinks was a light-heavyweight.
Spinks was actually the Linear heavyweight champ. Agreed he was blown up, but he did woin the linear title.
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Old 04-27-2008, 05:32 PM   #30
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Default Re: Larry Holmes was in his prime when Tyson beat him(Read the post first)

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Originally Posted by Sweet Pea
You ****ing lied about what I said and started a thread about it. I never said Holmes was at his peak you ****ing troll piece of shit, point me to where I did. Goddamn you have to be the most mind-numbing person I've ever argued with. You're a fraud and a liar.
Exposing you is not the reason why i made this thread, i made this thread so you could realize what you were saying and so experts that know their stuff can show you that a two year lay off can be harmful, especially when you are 39 years of age and fighting past your prime. You were completely ignoring the fact that Holmes had 5 tune ups for Mercer and continued to say the version that fought Tyson was better, only to support your pathetic logics and make Tyson seem more credible(which didn't work).
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