Boxing  

Forum Home Boxing Forum European British Classic Aussie MMA Training
Go Back   Boxing News 24 Forum > Boxing > Classic Boxing Forum


Reply
 
Thread Tools
Old 04-28-2008, 06:18 AM   #16
enquirer
Belt holder
ESB Addict
 
Join Date: Mar 2006
Posts: 1,604
vCash: 1000
Default Re: Cyborg vs Carlos Monzon

Ketchel and greb i discount due to lack of film etc...
Robinson i say no because of his style,struggles against pressure at 160 and his lack of size. Hopkins,no,because of his defensive mindset , lack of gambling mentality in losing situations (such as being outworked by taylor,jones and joe) and his poor record in big fights v equally sized men.

Now come on,admit that its mister jones who puts on the clinic?!
enquirer is offline  Top
Reply With Quote
Sponsored Links
Old 04-28-2008, 07:17 AM   #17
Senya13
Belt holder
ESB Addict
 
Join Date: Jul 2005
Location: Russia
Posts: 3,843
vCash: 1210
Default Re: Cyborg vs Carlos Monzon

Monzon applies different kind of pressure than the one Robinson was vulnerable to, although this fight would be close and hard to score.

Hopkins will nullify Monzon's jab, he's a better counter-puncher and he's a better in-fighter than Monzon, and is as physically strong as Monzon, and he doesn't wilt toward later rounds, he's working steadily the whole distance.
Senya13 is offline  Top
Reply With Quote
Old 04-28-2008, 07:34 AM   #18
enquirer
Belt holder
ESB Addict
 
Join Date: Mar 2006
Posts: 1,604
vCash: 1000
Default Re: Cyborg vs Carlos Monzon

OK,those are your opinions. Now come clean on who would give the clinic.....
enquirer is offline  Top
Reply With Quote
Old 04-28-2008, 08:45 AM   #19
JohnThomas1
Undisputed Champion
East Side VIP
 
Join Date: Apr 2005
Location: Australia
Posts: 11,119
vCash: 1000
Default Re: Cyborg vs Carlos Monzon

Quote:
Originally Posted by Senya13
No. It's what always comes to mind when I'm watching Monzon's fights, it seems so obvious, yet nobody really tried to exploit these technical flaws against him.
Maybe Carlos already had an answer. His jab is very very long with the right hand ever ****ed behind it and as for the left hook, best not be short with it - the right hand is ****ed.

I think you might be looking a bit too much at face value here. Monzon seldom looked the dazzler yet here he was dominating all those opponents even past prime.
JohnThomas1 is offline  Top
Reply With Quote
Old 04-28-2008, 08:54 AM   #20
Senya13
Belt holder
ESB Addict
 
Join Date: Jul 2005
Location: Russia
Posts: 3,843
vCash: 1210
Default Re: Cyborg vs Carlos Monzon

It depends how you gonna use the right cross and a left hook. If you do it right, his right hand counter is of no danger. Side-step to the right of his jab and throw your right cross - he can't counter you from that position. Side-step to the left of his jab, and throw a high left hook, and your shoulder and elbow will block his right hand counter.
Senya13 is offline  Top
Reply With Quote
Old 04-28-2008, 09:02 AM   #21
JohnThomas1
Undisputed Champion
East Side VIP
 
Join Date: Apr 2005
Location: Australia
Posts: 11,119
vCash: 1000
Default Re: Cyborg vs Carlos Monzon

Quote:
Originally Posted by Senya13
It depends how you gonna use the right cross and a left hook. If you do it right, his right hand counter is of no danger. Side-step to the right of his jab and throw your right cross - he can't counter you from that position. Side-step to the left of his jab, and throw a high left hook, and your shoulder and elbow will block his right hand counter.
Sorry, but i don't see it being quite that easy. Monzons one smart cookie in there.
JohnThomas1 is offline  Top
Reply With Quote
Old 04-28-2008, 09:55 AM   #22
Senya13
Belt holder
ESB Addict
 
Join Date: Jul 2005
Location: Russia
Posts: 3,843
vCash: 1210
Default Re: Cyborg vs Carlos Monzon

I don't see it on film. He's just outwearing the opponent methodically, with little variation or adjustment to his style or tactics.
Senya13 is offline  Top
Reply With Quote
Old 04-28-2008, 12:13 PM   #23
Ted Spoon
Contender
ESB Senior Member
 
Join Date: Sep 2005
Posts: 1,045
vCash: 1000
Default Re: Cyborg vs Carlos Monzon

^ Aye, but his method of wearing the opponent down was a measured and considerate assault. Long jabs, double jabs, jab finders, a long right hand, the right hand lead, a neat little left uppercut and slugs to the body - Monzon worked angles all the time and while he looked less sharp than the prototype, his boxing brain was so in tune with the tide of battle that he would begin to unscrew your cogs as the rounds went by.

Monzon was more of a 'boxer/batterer' than a boxer/puncher - he played all the smart shots, tied you up and then subjected you to sustained, awkward brick wall of long distance booming, mid-range mixing and up close rough-housing - he was extremely hard to best in every area despite the blunt exterior because he was so measured.

Ray Robinson would have a helluva crack at King Carlos, but when you see him bully the likes of powerful and skilled men like Valdez you know you're dealing with something a bit special. Hagler could get stylistically bamboozled, Monzon always seemed in charge - this is Ted Spoons educated theory. It's hard to imagine anyone taking over while sharing a ring with him even though a handful would give it a good go.
Ted Spoon is offline  Top
Reply With Quote
Old 04-28-2008, 12:15 PM   #24
Maxmomer
Belt holder
ESB Addict
 
Join Date: Jun 2007
Posts: 3,690
vCash: 619
Default Re: Cyborg vs Carlos Monzon

Are we talking like a Terminator cyborg or Robocop cyborg?
Maxmomer is offline  Top
Reply With Quote
Old 04-28-2008, 04:41 PM   #25
JohnThomas1
Undisputed Champion
East Side VIP
 
Join Date: Apr 2005
Location: Australia
Posts: 11,119
vCash: 1000
Default Re: Cyborg vs Carlos Monzon

Quote:
Originally Posted by Ted Spoon
^ Aye, but his method of wearing the opponent down was a measured and considerate assault. Long jabs, double jabs, jab finders, a long right hand, the right hand lead, a neat little left uppercut and slugs to the body - Monzon worked angles all the time and while he looked less sharp than the prototype, his boxing brain was so in tune with the tide of battle that he would begin to unscrew your cogs as the rounds went by.

Monzon was more of a 'boxer/batterer' than a boxer/puncher - he played all the smart shots, tied you up and then subjected you to sustained, awkward brick wall of long distance booming, mid-range mixing and up close rough-housing - he was extremely hard to best in every area despite the blunt exterior because he was so measured.

Ray Robinson would have a helluva crack at King Carlos, but when you see him bully the likes of powerful and skilled men like Valdez you know you're dealing with something a bit special. Hagler could get stylistically bamboozled, Monzon always seemed in charge - this is Ted Spoons educated theory. It's hard to imagine anyone taking over while sharing a ring with him even though a handful would give it a good go.
That's a top little read.
JohnThomas1 is offline  Top
Reply With Quote
Old 04-28-2008, 04:51 PM   #26
Mantequilla
Belt holder
ESB Addict
 
Join Date: Aug 2004
Posts: 2,482
vCash: 1000
Default Re: Cyborg vs Carlos Monzon

I'm still betting on Hard Rock Green.
Mantequilla is offline  Top
Reply With Quote
Old 04-28-2008, 05:08 PM   #27
ChrisPontius
March 8th, 1971
East Side Guru
 
Join Date: Oct 2005
Location: Holland
Posts: 9,643
vCash: 238
Default Re: Cyborg vs Carlos Monzon

Quote:
Originally Posted by Maxmomer
Are we talking like a Terminator cyborg or Robocop cyborg?
Terminator.

Robocop lacks footwork and has his chin exposed.
ChrisPontius is offline  Top
Reply With Quote
Old 04-28-2008, 05:25 PM   #28
dpw417
Belt holder
ESB Addict
 
Join Date: Jul 2007
Posts: 3,379
vCash: 0
Default Re: Cyborg vs Carlos Monzon

Quote:
Originally Posted by Ted Spoon
^ Aye, but his method of wearing the opponent down was a measured and considerate assault. Long jabs, double jabs, jab finders, a long right hand, the right hand lead, a neat little left uppercut and slugs to the body - Monzon worked angles all the time and while he looked less sharp than the prototype, his boxing brain was so in tune with the tide of battle that he would begin to unscrew your cogs as the rounds went by.

Monzon was more of a 'boxer/batterer' than a boxer/puncher - he played all the smart shots, tied you up and then subjected you to sustained, awkward brick wall of long distance booming, mid-range mixing and up close rough-housing - he was extremely hard to best in every area despite the blunt exterior because he was so measured.

Ray Robinson would have a helluva crack at King Carlos, but when you see him bully the likes of powerful and skilled men like Valdez you know you're dealing with something a bit special. Hagler could get stylistically bamboozled, Monzon always seemed in charge - this is Ted Spoons educated theory. It's hard to imagine anyone taking over while sharing a ring with him even though a handful would give it a good go.
Ted Spoon, how about Greb?...
Addendum:...and while we are at it...Mickey Walker!
I could see Monzon winning from a distance against Walker. But Walker went face to face with heavyweights like Sharkey and Schmeling among others. He would not be discouraged with Monzon (I feel) and 'what if' Walker is able to close the gap, and force Monzon to fight on the inside with him? It never happened in Carlos' career...and there could be a very good reason for that...Monzon was very adept at dictating his terms in all his fights...But if Walker is able to push him, and he would be far more capable than anyone Monzon ever fought (IMO). I feel Walker would have fought much smarter than Valdez in coming into Monzon, recently viewed the first Monzon/Valdez fight, and Valdez totally gave up trying to initiate a jab with his head movement (and later in the fight he did not even maintain the head movement) in an attempt to close the distance. Basically he was a sitting duck for Monzon, later in the fight due to a lack of adherence to a plan, or lack of fundamentals attacking a taller opponent. I like Valdez, but he is not a great fighter...(but he is very powerful)
Greats like Robinson, Walker, Hagler, and I'd imagine Greb (when considering his record) they KNOW how to fight and maintain strategic fundamentals, while adapting to what happens in the ring. Especially Robinson, Walker and Greb, their careers demonstrate this, and bare this out.
The only time Monzon was really tactically challenged was the second Griffith fight. It could be done (beating Monzon)...but it would take a another great to do it.

Last edited by dpw417; 04-28-2008 at 05:51 PM.
dpw417 is offline  Top
Reply With Quote
Old 04-28-2008, 08:20 PM   #29
Longhhorn71
Belt holder
ESB Addict
 
Join Date: Jan 2007
Posts: 3,594
vCash: 1000
Default Re: Cyborg vs Carlos Monzon

Great analytical discussions by all the Great Classic Posters above.

Man, you guys know "boxing".
Longhhorn71 is offline  Top
Reply With Quote
Old 04-29-2008, 02:09 AM   #30
Lefty Supremacy
Journeyman
 
Join Date: Mar 2007
Posts: 96
vCash: 1000
Default Re: Cyborg vs Carlos Monzon

Quote:
Originally Posted by dpw417
Ted Spoon, how about Greb?...
Addendum:...and while we are at it...Mickey Walker!
I could see Monzon winning from a distance against Walker. But Walker went face to face with heavyweights like Sharkey and Schmeling among others. He would not be discouraged with Monzon (I feel) and 'what if' Walker is able to close the gap, and force Monzon to fight on the inside with him? It never happened in Carlos' career...and there could be a very good reason for that...Monzon was very adept at dictating his terms in all his fights...But if Walker is able to push him, and he would be far more capable than anyone Monzon ever fought (IMO). I feel Walker would have fought much smarter than Valdez in coming into Monzon, recently viewed the first Monzon/Valdez fight, and Valdez totally gave up trying to initiate a jab with his head movement (and later in the fight he did not even maintain the head movement) in an attempt to close the distance. Basically he was a sitting duck for Monzon, later in the fight due to a lack of adherence to a plan, or lack of fundamentals attacking a taller opponent. I like Valdez, but he is not a great fighter...(but he is very powerful)
Greats like Robinson, Walker, Hagler, and I'd imagine Greb (when considering his record) they KNOW how to fight and maintain strategic fundamentals, while adapting to what happens in the ring. Especially Robinson, Walker and Greb, their careers demonstrate this, and bare this out.
The only time Monzon was really tactically challenged was the second Griffith fight. It could be done (beating Monzon)...but it would take a another great to do it.
To be fair to Valdez, his brother had just been murdered before the fight and Valdez wanted to pull out of the fight.
Lefty Supremacy is offline  Top
Reply With Quote
Reply

Boxing News 24 Forum > Boxing > Classic Boxing Forum

Thread Tools

Posting Rules
You may not post new threads
You may not post replies
You may not post attachments
You may not edit your posts

BB code is On
Smilies are On
[IMG] code is Off
HTML code is Off

Forum Jump





All times are GMT -4. The time now is 01:14 PM.


Powered by vBulletin® Version 3.8.0
Copyright ©2000 - 2014, Jelsoft Enterprises Ltd.
Boxing News 24 Forum 2013