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View Poll Results: Liston vs Holyfield
Holy by decision 11 32.35%
Holy by KO 2 5.88%
Sonny by KO 13 38.24%
Sonny by decision 8 23.53%
Voters: 34. You may not vote on this poll

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Old 04-29-2008, 10:25 PM   #16
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Default Re: Liston (1963) vs Holyfield (1995) ?

Quote:
Originally Posted by SuzieQ49
A late 1950s Liston was about 100x faster than 42 year old foreman, far more skilled...far better jab, far better puncher. I really think liston at his best would make dogmeat out of holyfield. I rewatched his fights in the ealry 1990s......couldnt believe how much he struggled with an old michael dokes and bert cooper, not to mention 44 year old holmes and foreman. I think Liston would tee off his jab at holyfield, when holy came inside to counter with his combinations he would outphysicaled and dominated by uppercuts on the inside like riddick bowe did to him, because liston was a very good inside fighter. Liston was the better fighter at all ranges. at long range, liston destroys him with his 84" reach........when liston has him on the ropes like bert cooper did liston finishes holyfield. holy loved to brawl, and he will get smoked by liston every minute he tries to brawl.....he tries to box liston was a very scientific boxer just as skilled as holy expect better tools........I see this as a TKO win for liston.
Strong argument.

Quote:
I dont understand why he has 1963 liston(who was past his prime by then) and 1995 holy(who was past his prime by then)
I assumed (perhaps incorrectly) this was intentional.
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Old 04-29-2008, 10:29 PM   #17
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Default Re: Liston (1963) vs Holyfield (1995) ?

TKO9 win for Holy.

Holyfield is just too big, fast and determined for the predictable, plodding Liston. Liston, in a way, was the last of the Neanderthals. He just doesn't match well with the modern boxing machines. In his heyday- a distinctly horrible era for heavyweights- he was able to act as the grand bully. But his very predictable approach would be handled easy in the postmodern heavy era, which is why a very green Clay/Ali- fresh off some wobbly fights- found him so easy to hurt and defeat.

Among Holyfield's foes up to and about 1995 who I also pick to defeat Liston are Bowe, Tyson, Lewis and Dokes.

Lesson learned.... don't run a VW Beetle against an IROC.

ps... whoever said Liston was 100x faster than Foreman needs to adjust the speed on his super-8 machine.
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Old 04-29-2008, 10:35 PM   #18
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Default Re: Liston (1963) vs Holyfield (1995) ?

Quote:
Holyfield is just too big

I stopped reading after that sentence



Sonny Liston 6'1 212lb

Evandrer Holyfield 6'3 205lb
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Old 04-29-2008, 10:47 PM   #19
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Default Re: Liston (1963) vs Holyfield (1995) ?

This is an extremely tough fight to call and would probably give a different answer next week but today I'll go with Holyfield. Handspeed, heart, and counterpunching would be his keys to victory.

Liston is a complete boxer-puncher and I could see him winning a decision but I think Holy was capable of digging deeper than Liston and would end up outhustling him. Holyfield would not be intimidated by Liston and has been succesful against men bigger and stronger. So I think Liston's bullying ability would be nil against Holyfield. Of course Holy could slug it out like he likes to and that might give the advantage to Liston.

Liston looked great against good fighters, few could blow out good fighters like Liston could. But Holyfield is on a whole different level than Patterson, Williams, Folley, and some of the others. Holyfield by decision.
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Old 04-29-2008, 10:51 PM   #20
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Default Re: Liston (1963) vs Holyfield (1995) ?

Quote:
But Holyfield is on a whole different level than Patterson, Williams, Folley, and some of the others.
different level than patterson? how so? what did holyfield do better than patterson?


I would also say liston was on a whole different level than 45 year olds foreman and holmes, ray mercer, bert cooper, old michael dokes, michael moorer, washed up mike tyson.........
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Old 04-29-2008, 11:04 PM   #21
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Default Re: Liston (1963) vs Holyfield (1995) ?

Quote:
Originally Posted by SuzieQ49
different level than patterson? how so? what did holyfield do better than patterson?


I would also say liston was on a whole different level than 45 year olds foreman and holmes, ray mercer, bert cooper, old michael dokes, michael moorer, washed up mike tyson.........

Holyfields size, durability, and most importantly him not being intimidated put him in a whole different league than Patterson. Yeah, Liston is on a different level than those you mention. But I think Holyfield has been in the ring with some who aren't too far off of Liston. Lewis, to me, was better than Liston and an older Holyfield did well in the rematch with him. Bowe wasn't on par with Liston but Holyfield proved he could deal with someone who is bigger and stronger than him. Two of Liston's bigger assets during his career.
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Old 04-30-2008, 12:05 AM   #22
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Default Re: Liston (1963) vs Holyfield (1995) ?

Quote:
Originally Posted by SuzieQ49
I stopped reading after that sentence



Sonny Liston 6'1 212lb

Evandrer Holyfield 6'3 205lb
it is the combination of too big and fast in comparison to the lousy era in which liston fought (which is not liston's fault).

and again you gloriously misquote facts as holy was weighing in the 215 range for his fights in 95-96.

keep up the good work.
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Old 04-30-2008, 12:07 AM   #23
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Default Re: Liston (1963) vs Holyfield (1995) ?

Quote:

Holyfields size, durability, and most importantly him not being intimidated put him in a whole different league than Patterson

size is because holyfield took steroids. Patterson was 195lb only 10lb lesss than the 205lb roided up holyfield.

-Durability is a big yes, thats the only advantage holyfield has

- Intimidation is all pure speculation....patterson was the one who took the fight despite his management's strong objections. People only call it "intidimation" to make exuses for the fact the fighter got their ass kicked early and dominantly/



Evander Holyfield continues to be a very overated heavyweight in h2h matchups
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Old 04-30-2008, 12:11 AM   #24
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Default Re: Liston (1963) vs Holyfield (1995) ?

Quote:
Originally Posted by Seamus

keep up the good work.
Why don't you tell us how a 1990 version of michael dokes would beat sonny liston


Quote:
to the lousy era in which liston fought (which is not liston's fault
Actually Liston fought in one of the better eras in heavyweight history.

Quote:
and again you gloriously misquote facts as holy was weighing in the 215 range for his fights in 95-96.
So you want to put a 1995 Hepatisis slower older roided up holyfield who couldn't do a thing againgst washed up cruiserweight bobby zyz in against sonny liston?


Quote:
it is the combination of too big and fast
judging by the prime holyfield fights with 44 year old holmes, 42 year old foreman, subsitute bert cooper, past his prime Coke dokes His pitiful title reign which he vastly struggled in.......I do not think holyfield would be too fast and big for liston. Holyfield won't know what to do when liston sticks that jab in his face.
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Old 04-30-2008, 12:28 AM   #25
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Default Re: Liston (1963) vs Holyfield (1995) ?

Quote:
Originally Posted by SuzieQ49
size is because holyfield took steroids. Patterson was 195lb only 10lb lesss than the 205lb roided up holyfield.

-Durability is a big yes, thats the only advantage holyfield has

- Intimidation is all pure speculation....patterson was the one who took the fight despite his management's strong objections. People only call it "intidimation" to make exuses for the fact the fighter got their ass kicked early and dominantly/



Evander Holyfield continues to be a very overated heavyweight in h2h matchups

I don't want to get into a debate over steroids here, but whatever the reason and whatever the weights I have no doubt Holyfield was a much stronger fighter than Patterson. As far as intimidation, I would have to rewatch the Patterson-Liston fights but he sure didnt seem like he wanted to be in there with Liston. I saw an opposite reaction when Holy was in the similar situation with Tyson.

I think Holyfield does ok in head to heads, actually I think Liston would do better against the field than Holyfield. I just think against each other Holyfield is a slight favorite here.
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Old 04-30-2008, 01:59 PM   #26
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Default Re: Liston (1963) vs Holyfield (1995) ?

Quote:
Originally Posted by SuzieQ49
size is because holyfield took steroids.
that is the proverbial "elephant in the room," agreed.

i'll still disagree on the era in which Liston fought. outside of himself, not top calibre competition.
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Old 04-30-2008, 02:16 PM   #27
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Default Re: Liston (1963) vs Holyfield (1995) ?

Quote:
Originally Posted by SuzieQ49
A late 1950s Liston was about 100x faster than 42 year old foreman, far more skilled...far better jab, far better puncher. I really think liston at his best would make dogmeat out of holyfield. I rewatched his fights in the ealry 1990s......couldnt believe how much he struggled with an old michael dokes and bert cooper, not to mention 44 year old holmes and foreman. I think Liston would tee off his jab at holyfield, when holy came inside to counter with his combinations he would outphysicaled and dominated by uppercuts on the inside like riddick bowe did to him, because liston was a very good inside fighter. Liston was the better fighter at all ranges. at long range, liston destroys him with his 84" reach........when liston has him on the ropes like bert cooper did liston finishes holyfield. holy loved to brawl, and he will get smoked by liston every minute he tries to brawl.....he tries to box liston was a very scientific boxer just as skilled as holy expect better tools........I see this as a TKO win for liston.



I dont understand why he has 1963 liston(who was past his prime by then) and 1995 holy(who was past his prime by then)
I don't think that 84" reach means too much, Holyfield has much more speed that can neutralise it. Holyfield is used to fighting big guys, in fact Liston would be one his his smaller opponents.

Liston, on the other hand, mainly fought and established himself against cruiserweights.
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Old 04-30-2008, 02:19 PM   #28
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Default Re: Liston (1963) vs Holyfield (1995) ?

Quote:
Originally Posted by SuzieQ49
I stopped reading after that sentence



Sonny Liston 6'1 212lb

Evandrer Holyfield 6'3 205lb
Holyfield at his best was around 212-215lbs. At 205lbs he was too weak as you could see in his first fight with Bowe. On top of that, the thread says 1995, during which Holyfield didn't weight 205lbs.

Apart from size, i think it's more important on how proven you are against heavyweight opponents. Liston only beat a few contenders that scaled over 200 pounds, Holyfield a whole bunch of them.
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Old 04-30-2008, 02:34 PM   #29
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Default Re: Liston (1963) vs Holyfield (1995) ?

Quote:
Liston only beat a few contenders that scaled over 200 pounds, Holyfield a whole bunch of them.
Liston beat a bunch.......Cleveland Williams 2x, Wayne Bethea, Mike Dejohn, Nino Valdez, Zora Folley, Henry Clark.


I think Holyfield was at his best at 202-205lb in late 80s-early 1990s, much faster and more fluid. holy was much slower and less sharp at 215lb i didnt think much of that version of holyfield.
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Old 04-30-2008, 03:19 PM   #30
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Default Re: Liston (1963) vs Holyfield (1995) ?

At his peak, and before drugs destroyed him, Dokes had about the fastest set of hands the heavyweight division ever saw. Also, he had great amateur pedigree and a seemless skillset. This combination of assets would likely frustrate and defeat Liston.

That said, you can't take the character issue out of the equation and apart from being a great talent Dokes could be a lazy drug addict. At their respective bests, I give him a good chance. However, Dokes was rarely at his best.
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