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Old 06-19-2007, 11:54 PM   #16
LennoxGOAT
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Default Re: Heavyweights punching power then and now

Guys hit harder today than they did back then. And guys in 15 years will hit harder than today. It is the evolution of the athlete and is represented in every single sport today. I find it amazing that people refuse to recognize this in boxing by continuing to argue guys in the past hit harder than fighters today.
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Old 06-20-2007, 12:16 AM   #17
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Default Re: Heavyweights punching power then and now

This is a simple math problem.

Force = Mass times Speed squared.

Size doesn't have everything to do with it. A bullet impacts with more force than a punch not because it has more mass than a fist but because it comes so much faster. The fact that the speed is squared is very important in that scenario.

With punches, however, the speed that people throw them doesn't differ SO much. Say, and I'm just guessing because I have no idea how fast their arms are actually moving, a very fast puncher punches at 30mph, while a relatively slow puncher punches at 20mph. The weight, or mass, behind those punches is going to make a big difference. If the fast puncher throws arm punches, like a Cory Spinks, the mass of his arm is, say, 20 lbs. 20lbs times 30mph squared (900) is going to be 18000 whatever. A slower puncher who throws punches with his weight behind them, say, Taylor with a straight right is going to have 175ish lbs times 20mph squared (400) which equals 70,000 whatever. Therefore Taylor is clearly the harder puncher of the two.

Most of a punchers power comes from the fact that he puts his WEIGHT behind the punch. Correct punching technique is where the power comes from. It is the reason that broadcasters and boxing experts criticize "arm punches".

Valuev is a prime example. When he puts his weight behind his punches correctly he can hit with some power (did anyone see how he threw his entire body into that last punch against Monte Barret?) but he typically doesn't do that. Also, he is SO slow that it clearly affects his power, the speed is squared so really it is extremely important, though, not as important as the correct technique.

When you have to correct form, for say, a straight right hand, you put all of your body mass behind the punch. Wladimir has an amazingly technically correct right hand punch. Wladimir is very fast and Wladimir is huge compared to those heavyweights of yesteryear. As far as straight rights go, his definitely hits harder.

I was sort of everywhere there, forgive me.
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Old 06-20-2007, 12:17 AM   #18
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Default Re: Heavyweights punching power then and now

Physical appearance has absolutely NOTHING to do with punching power.

Also, punching power is relative. In a boxing match, it is not about who is the most powerful as much as it is who is the most powerful relative to the other person's chin. Tyson was almost definitely more powerful than Holyfield, but he wasn't powerful enough to break his amazing beard so it didn't matter. Brewster is almost definitely less powerful than Wladimir, but he has taken the best Wladimir could dish out for four rounds and Wladimir couldn't take the best Brewster gave so it didn't matter.

Too much emphasis is put on one puncher being more powerful than another, when it isn't really that important. For instance, even if Marciano was much weaker than Klitschko, if he hit hard enough to KO Klitschko and Klitschko didn't hit hard enough to KO Marciano than it doesn't matter who hits harder. The fight will make it appear that Marciano hits harder, but it isn't necessarily the case.

Last edited by codeman99998; 06-20-2007 at 12:23 AM.
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Old 06-20-2007, 12:25 AM   #19
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Default Re: Heavyweights punching power then and now

Quote:
Originally Posted by Sonny's jab
Valuev must hit the hardest, he's the biggest.


Thanks for pointing out the absurdity of this latest version of the "bigger is better" thesis!!
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Old 06-20-2007, 12:32 AM   #20
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Default Re: Heavyweights punching power then and now

It's more form than anything else. It's about correctly placing your weight behind the punch more than ANYTHING else. It's math man, the more of your mass you put behind the punch, considering that all fighters punch at similar speeds (in a physics since) the more powerful it will be.
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Old 06-20-2007, 12:43 AM   #21
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Default Re: Heavyweights punching power then and now

All things being equal a big man hits harder than a smaller man. Our resident physicists have established that. But there's a huge difference between a hard punch and an effective punch. Accuracy has a lot to do with a punch being effective. Bang on a guys short ribs and it takes a few rounds to get the kind of effect you want. Crack him in the liver or solar plexus and good night Irene. Pop him hard square in the forehead and piss him off. Pop him in the temple and he's doing the Ottke vs Mundine reverse swan dive. That's why the punch you don't see coming is the one that flattens you.
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Old 06-20-2007, 12:44 AM   #22
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Default Re: Heavyweights punching power then and now

Quote:
Originally Posted by donkeyrigged
The hardest punchers don't necessarily become champion. I think Ike Ibeabuchi was a monstrous puncher, but it didn't translate into a belt.
well thats cause he went to jail hehe.
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Old 06-20-2007, 01:11 AM   #23
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Default Re: Heavyweights punching power then and now

Quote:
Originally Posted by Butch Coolidge
All things being equal a big man hits harder than a smaller man. Our resident physicists have established that. But there's a huge difference between a hard punch and an effective punch. Accuracy has a lot to do with a punch being effective. Bang on a guys short ribs and it takes a few rounds to get the kind of effect you want. Crack him in the liver or solar plexus and good night Irene. Pop him hard square in the forehead and piss him off. Pop him in the temple and he's doing the Ottke vs Mundine reverse swan dive. That's why the punch you don't see coming is the one that flattens you.
I agree. The actual force behind the punch isn't the most important factor when comparing boxers at all. Having lots of power behind a punch, for instance, is worthless if all of your punches miss. Hitting someone in the correct place with a slightly less powerful punch will be more effective than hitting them in a not-so perfect place with a harder punch. Hence the term "on the button" for a perfectly placed punch (as if boxers had a button that if you punched would be an automatic KO). Being slightly more powerful, or even WAY more powerful doesn't make up for not throwing enough punches to KO your opponet. Throwing powerful punches in combinations accurately is better than landing one punch at a time with slightly more power.

Power is overrated sometimes.
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Old 06-20-2007, 01:17 AM   #24
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Default Re: Heavyweights punching power then and now

Quote:
Originally Posted by macp
Then this blocky must be a smart guy! lol. no, seriously, i just relate it to other sports like hockey or baseball. pitchers never threw 100 mph in the 50's. imagine bonds facing a constant 70 mph fastball?
That's BS. Maybe there weren't as many guys throwing 90, but I have little doubt that Amos Rusie was hitting triple digits in 1900 and Walter Johnson was hitting triple digits in 1920.

I wouldn't be shocked if one or two of those smaller old timers hit as hard (or harder than) today's heavyweights. Hell, the hardest hitter right now is quite possibly a cruiserweight (Macca).
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Old 06-20-2007, 01:21 AM   #25
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Default Re: Heavyweights punching power then and now

Quote:
Originally Posted by codeman99998
I was sort of everywhere there, forgive me.
Yup, you were everywhere, allow me.

The simple answer to this question is that if the two sets of heavyweights were asked to hit a stationary force meter the new heavy's would hit it a lot harder then the older ones. Because as you said:

Force = (Mass)*(acceleration)

This is the simple answer.

A more complicated question would be: Who hit there opponent's harder? Because force can also be measured as a change in momentum, which is a vector quantity; therefore, the movement of the opponent is also factored into the overall force of the impact. When adding two vectors together the total force is greatest when the two oppossing forces are traveling in perfectly opposing directions (i.e. when a guy gets caught with a strieght shot walking striaght in, a la tyson v botha). In other words the actual force of an impact has as much to do with how and when a fighter catches his opponent as it does with how hard he himself actually throws a punch. More skilled fighters are better at hitting there opponent in a way that maximizes the force of the impact (i.e. better at catching them flush); therefore, the actual force of an impact has more to do with the skill of the fighter then the size of the fighter. Just try tellin' jersey Joe that he would have got hit harder by Rahman......Don't think he'd agree.

The scarry thing is when one of these giants like lewis has the skill to go with his size......

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Old 06-20-2007, 01:22 AM   #26
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Default Re: Heavyweights punching power then and now

Quote:
Originally Posted by RonnieHornschuh
it is often said that shavers, foreman and marciano are the most powerful punchers in boxing history, even more powerful than today's superheavyweights. i highly doubt that, shavers (6'0) and foreman were below 210 lbs, marciano (5'10) only at 185 pounds. with all the modern training techniques, more size and 240+ pounds today's heavy hitters must really do something wrong if they can't at least hit as hard as those three. my assumption is that if they measured the psi of let's say wlad klitschko, brewster, sam peter they would at least hit as hard as foreman and co., maybe harder. (klitschko is more a specialist for straights hands though). share your opinion please!!!
Foreman was about 220 in his prime, not under 210.
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Old 06-20-2007, 01:23 AM   #27
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Default Re: Heavyweights punching power then and now

Quote:
Originally Posted by Brickhaus
That's BS. Maybe there weren't as many guys throwing 90, but I have little doubt that Amos Rusie was hitting triple digits in 1900 and Walter Johnson was hitting triple digits in 1920.

I wouldn't be shocked if one or two of those smaller old timers hit as hard (or harder than) today's heavyweights. Hell, the hardest hitter right now is quite possibly a cruiserweight (Macca).
It is irrelevant, and I don't follow baseball but how can you possibly have little doubt that two pitchers from THAT long ago threw in triple digits? I mean, have you ever SEEN them pitch?

Also, if most guys were throwing 60-70mph back then, wouldn't a 90mph pitch seem like a BULLET compared? Isn't a 100mph pitch like, tough for most modern pitchers to throw?
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Old 06-20-2007, 01:26 AM   #28
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Default Re: Heavyweights punching power then and now

Quote:
Originally Posted by o_money
Yup, you were everywhere, allow me.

The simple answer to this question is that if the two sets of heavyweights were asked to hit a stationary force meter the new heavy's would hit it a lot harder then the older ones. Because as you said:

Force = (Mass)*(acceleration)

This is the simple answer.

A more complicated question would be: Who hit there opponent's harder? Because force can also be measured as a change in momentum, which is a vector quantity; therefore, the movement of the opponent is also factored into the overall force of the impact. When adding two vectors together the total force is greatest when the two oppossing forces are traveling in perfectly opposing directions (i.e. when a guy gets caught with a strieght shot walking striaght in, a la tyson v botha). In other words the actual force of an impact has as much to do with how and when a fighter catches his opponent as it does with how hard he himself actually throws a punch. More skilled fighters are better at hitting there opponent in a way that maximizes the force of the impact (i.e. better at catching them flush); therefore, the actual force of an impact has more to do with the skill of the fighter then the size of the fighter. Just try tellin' jersey Joe that he would have got hit harder by Rahman......Don't think he'd agree.

The scarry thing is when one of these giants like lewis has the skill to go with his size......

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Hahaha, thanks dude. I haven't taken any sort of physics class (high school physics only anyways) in years.
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Old 06-20-2007, 01:34 AM   #29
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Default Re: Heavyweights punching power then and now

Quote:
Originally Posted by codeman99998
Hahaha, thanks dude. I haven't taken any sort of physics class (high school physics only anyways) in years.
No worries mate....you had the right ideas. just was a little hard to follow.
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Old 06-20-2007, 01:51 AM   #30
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Default Re: Heavyweights punching power then and now

Vitali and Vladimir Klitschko hite extremely hard.
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