Harry Greb vs Hasim Ramhan

[janitor]

Originally Posted by rekcutnevets

I am still amazed by people trying to analyze a fight, that envolves a fighter they have rarely seen. How do you know Greb was never hit clean? How do you know Rahman's one two isn't two much? How do you know Greb isn't too fast for Rahman? You don't. You have no footage to justify your answers.

I have footage of Tunney and if he could not hit Greb cleanly then it is fair to asume that Ramhan would have a world of trouble doing it.

[Senya13]

Greb didn't have the style or defense to last the distance with Rahman. Hasim knocks him out.

[janitor]

Originally Posted by Senya13

Greb didn't have the style or defense to last the distance with Rahman. Hasim knocks him out.

How do you know that Ramhan would hit Greb cleanly?

Or that he or anybody else has the power to knock out Greb if he can?

[Senya13]

Rahman might be not the best technician out there (at heavyweight), and he might be inconsistent, but he does have a punch. Toney had a much better defense than Greb ever showed, but even he got hit several times during their bout.

[janitor]

Originally Posted by Senya13

Rahman might be not the best technician out there (at heavyweight), and he might be inconsistent, but he does have a punch.

A punch without the technique to back it up is as much use as half a pair of scisors.

[Senya13]

1) Who's everybody? Do you want to post fight report of Greb's fight with Walker (since he's talked about in the other thread), so we know how unhittable he was?

2) With natural super heavyweight of B+ class against natural welterweight or middleweight of A- class, my money will be on super heavyweight, he doesn't need many chances to hurt and finish the smaller guy. It will be like with Foreman, pretty much every punch he lands will hurt, even if it lands on block or not cleanly. If he can't land a single flush punch, he'll wear you doing gradually. Greb was a natural super middleweight, he outmuscled Walker easily.

[janitor]

[quote]

Originally Posted by Senya13

1) Who's everybody? Do you want to post fight report of Greb's fight with Walker (since he's talked about in the other thread), so we know how unhittable he was?

Walker was himself a pound for pound great and crucialy a smaller faster fighter.

2) With natural super heavyweight of B+ class against natural welterweight or middleweight of A- class, my money will be on super heavyweight,

As a general rule this is sound. It is not a given however.

he doesn't need many chances to hurt and finish the smaller guy. It will be like with Foreman, pretty much every punch he lands will hurt, even if it lands on block or not cleanly. If he can't land a single flush punch, he'll wear you doing gradually.

Ocasionaly a small guy can have freakish durability. Once in a blue moon you get a supermiddleweight who has a good chin at heavyweight.

Greb was a natural super middleweight, he outmuscled Walker easily

Jack Sharkey was a natural heavyweight and he couldn't outmuscle Walker. I don't think it was Greb's strength which was the issue.

[Senya13]

Several other fighters gave Greb less chances to hit them clean and often, than Walker did in their fight. Even old shot Jack Blackburn had a better defense than Walker.

Yes, Jones outboxed Ruiz, so there can obviously be exceptions to the rule. But he was bigger, had a different style than Walker, and a better-suiting set of skills for such deed. You may try to come up with example of Sam Langford, but he was naturally bigger and a better fighter than Walker.

Sharkey was considerably smaller (he's a natural cruiserweight) and he did outmuscle Walker most of the time they were in close.

[janitor]

[quote]

Originally Posted by Senya13

Several other fighters gave Greb less chances to hit them clean and often, than Walker did in their fight. Even old shot Jack Blackburn had a better defense than Walker.

So what?

Blackburn was one of the best technicians of all time.

Yes, Jones outboxed Ruiz, so there can obviously be exceptions to the rule. But he was bigger, had a different style than Walker, and a better-suiting set of skills for such deed.

A lot of people have outboxed Ruiz. It is not that hard.

Sharkey was considerably smaller (he's a natural cruiserweight) and he did outmuscle Walker most of the time they were in close.

The fact remains that Walker was able to hold ring centre with him and force a draw. I would also add that Sharkey was a far better technician than Ruiz and often tipped 200lbs.

Personaly I would not give Ruiz a snowballs chance in hell against Sharkey even on an off night.

[Senya13]

Originally Posted by janitor

Blackburn was one of the best technicians of all time.

Blackburn was totally shot when he made his comeback.

A lot of people have outboxed Ruiz. It is not that hard.

Only two were former middleweights (one a natural 168, the other a natural light-heavy or cruiser) have done this, and both were clearly superior to Walker in defense to avoid getting hit cleanly most of the time.

The fact remains that Walker was able to hold ring centre with him and force a draw.

Ok, I give him credit for being able to fight to a draw with a B-level cruiserweight. What does this prove? He also lost to a C-level cruiserweight a year later.

I would also add that Sharkey was a far better technician than Ruiz and often tipped 200lbs.

Which Sharkey fights suggest this and which younger Ruiz fights have you seen (before the adopted his new boring tactics)?

Personaly I would not give Ruiz a snowballs chance in hell against Sharkey even on an off night.

Ruiz knocks Sharkey out somewhere inside 6-8 rounds. Ruiz is the most underrated heavyweight of today. He's boring, but he's effective.

[janitor]

[quote]

Originally Posted by Senya13

Blackburn was totally shot when he made his comeback.

But his defensive skills are still a given.

Again you are using a fight against a small fast technical fighter to justicfy that a big, slow crude fighter can box with him.

Only two were former middleweights (one a natural 168, the other a natural light-heavy or cruiser) have done this, and both were clearly superior to Walker in defense to avoid getting hit cleanly most of the time.

Only two former middleweights have tried and both have suceeded.

Beyond that he has been frequently outboxed by average fighters.

Ok, I give him credit for being able to fight to a draw with a B-level cruiserweight. What does this prove? He also lost to a C-level cruiserweight a year later.

You consider Sharkey to be a B level and Schmeling a C level cruiserweight?

That is a quite extroardinary statment.

Which Sharkey fights suggest this and which younger Ruiz fights have you seen (before the adopted his new boring tactics)?

Every Sharkey fight I have seen suggests that he was several orders of magnitude above Ruiz in skill.

Do you really want to argue the contrary?

Ruiz knocks Sharkey out somewhere inside 6-8 rounds.

Not a chance in hell.

[mcvey]

Originally Posted by Senya13

1) Who's everybody? Do you want to post fight report of Greb's fight with Walker (since he's talked about in the other thread), so we know how unhittable he was?

2) With natural super heavyweight of B+ class against natural welterweight or middleweight of A- class, my money will be on super heavyweight, he doesn't need many chances to hurt and finish the smaller guy. It will be like with Foreman, pretty much every punch he lands will hurt, even if it lands on block or not cleanly. If he can't land a single flush punch, he'll wear you doing gradually. Greb was a natural super middleweight, he outmuscled Walker easily.

Greb actually fought very conservatively in the early rounds against Walker he was weight drained and didnt open up and fight his usual windmill style till past the halfway mark.Greb came down from175 to 159 lbs,he lived on synthetic orange juice and thr minimal food ,the afternoon of the fight Grebran twice around the Central Park reservoir to shed the weight. The first 4 rds were all Walker ,he gave Greb a pounding,then Greb slowly began to work,he gave Walker a lesson in infighting befuddling him with his variety and speed,the action was now fast and furious ,even the referee ended up on the floor twice after trying to break the fighters,Walker finished the fight crying with frustration ,many thought Greb carried him through the last round ,when it seemed he could have put the Bull dog away.The source for this is James R Fair,s book the Iron City Express.

[Senya13]

1. His defense was so good that he got knocked out several times. The thing is many other fighters gave Greb more troubles with their defense than Walker did.

2. Not just two former middleweights, but two great technicians with all-time top-notch defensive skills.
Who else outboxed Ruiz? Not counting the close fights where he was either robbed (Values, Kobozev) or it could go either way (Nicholson, Chagaev).

3. Sharkey is a B-level fighter. Johnny Risko is a C-level fighter.

4. Sharkey looks poor on film. Footwork, defense, offense, all average at best.

[Senya13]

Greb vs Walker

One opinion about the fight is at boxrec:

Greb often didn't do much training for his fights in the latter part of his career, but he trained hard for this one. The result was that he won 12 of the 15 rounds and gave Walker a sound thrashing. Mickey won the first and 12th rounds, the 8th was even, and Harry took all of the others. Walker was in a bad way in the last two rounds. Details are available in the New York Times.

The Wire report leaves no doubt Greb won easily (although Walker was very game), including besting Walker in his own field - at infighting:

Greb not only got in cleaner blows when the two were tied up in knots, but he had the ability to get his weight behind them. So much so that Mickey's head was jarred so hard that the water dropped onto his dome by the seconds between rounds spattered out as it does from a setter dog's back when he shakes himself after a plunge.

I read a couple of "reports" about this fight written many-many years ago after it happened, and they consisted of BS that had little similarity to what the next-day reports said. Written with hindsight knowledge in attempt to give this fight more significance than it actually had.

[Senya13]

Ruiz easily deserved at least a draw. Even in Germany one of the judges saw it for Ruiz. That's not bullshit, that's a fact.