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Old 05-12-2008, 03:50 PM   #16
Manassa
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Default Re: The Evolution from Low Gaurd to High Gaurd

Man has been fighting with his fists for thousands of years. He didn't just decide overnight that he could actually block and slip punches after all. It's about gloves and also rules, something which I should have said about earlier. Back in the day, they had plenty of time to stand around and wait for an opening, nowadays they have to create openings much more actively because of time restrictions.
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Old 05-12-2008, 03:59 PM   #17
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Default Re: The Evolution from Low Gaurd to High Gaurd

You'd figure this thread to be common sense and elementary knowledge, but somehow many still seem to think a guy like Ketchell, Fitzsimmons, Johnson, etc could compete in today's game.
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Old 05-12-2008, 04:02 PM   #18
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Default Re: The Evolution from Low Gaurd to High Gaurd

Boxing manuals printed around 1900 emphasise that the guard should be held low so that it can be moved to defend against a blow to either the head or body.

Of course with a 4 oz horsehair glove the concequences of a solar plexus punch were much worse.
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Old 05-12-2008, 04:05 PM   #19
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Default Re: The Evolution from Low Gaurd to High Gaurd

Quote:
Originally Posted by janitor
Of course with a 4 oz horsehair glove the concequences of a solar plexus punch were much worse.
Why would they be worse than with MMA gloves? I realize they are not as sturdy, but why would it be more effective a blow to the body, considering the hardness is similar and the surface area of the punch is pretty much the same.
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Old 05-12-2008, 04:07 PM   #20
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Default Re: The Evolution from Low Gaurd to High Gaurd

Even with small gloves a high gaurd would be effictive. It might not block as many punches as it would with todays bigger gloves but it would disrupt the path of the punch.
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Old 05-12-2008, 04:27 PM   #21
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Default Re: The Evolution from Low Gaurd to High Gaurd

Quote:
Originally Posted by Sweet Pea
Why would they be worse than with MMA gloves? I realize they are not as sturdy, but why would it be more effective a blow to the body, considering the hardness is similar and the surface area of the punch is pretty much the same.
My argument is that relative to the 10 oz gloves that modern fighters use a 4oz glove would increase the effectivness of a body shot far more than it would increase the effectivness of a head shot.

MMA gloves are of a similar size to the 4oz gloves of the past but the stuffing is probably softer and of course fighters of that period put a lot of verry thick tape over their knuckles.
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Old 05-12-2008, 04:33 PM   #22
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Default Re: The Evolution from Low Gaurd to High Gaurd

Quote:
Originally Posted by janitor
My argument is that relative to the 10 oz gloves that modern fighters use a 4oz glove would increase the effectivness of a body shot far more than it would increase the effectivness of a head shot.
Single shots with MMA gloves often result in one punch KO's. The smaller gloves have a smaller surface area, therefore don't allow for built up punishment like big gloves do, but when landed in the right spot, they put you out much easier, as they are more precise.

Quote:
MMA gloves are of a similar size to the 4oz gloves of the past but the stuffing is probably softer and of course fighters of that period put a lot of verry thick tape over their knuckles.
The stuffing is actually quite hard, it protects your hands, not the opponent's face or body. This also allows for maximum power on punches for longer amounts of time, as the horse hair gloves were much easier to damage your hand in.
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Old 05-12-2008, 04:43 PM   #23
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Default Re: The Evolution from Low Gaurd to High Gaurd

first off, UFC gloves are NOT the same as a boxing glove from the early 1900's or late 1800's. We may look at Fitz's ko over Corbett, but a ko by the body shot was pretty common.

There can fit a LOT of MORE up to date padded in the UFC's gloves. They didnt have that back than, the gloves of the early 1900's you can move around the padded, and you can break your hand useing that early gloved(Jeff Sharkey)

Other thing, is the UFC guys are NOT boxing, they play alot of ground work also. There is no high guard when they both are rolling around on the floor.

Winky can just hold up his hands and thsos giant gloves will protect his WHOLE upper body(The Tito fight comes to mind)
If he trys to do that in the early 1900's with Joe Gans or Fitz, he may get ko by the gloves of the early 1900's.
Also it would be impossible for Ali to rope a dope with the gloves of the early 1900's. Too many openings.
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Old 05-12-2008, 04:51 PM   #24
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Default Re: The Evolution from Low Gaurd to High Gaurd

Quote:
Originally Posted by Kamus
Wouldn't it be easier to parry punches with your hands held high?
Yes, which is why they had their hands up in front of them most of the time, when in close range.


For instance:

[Only registered and activated users can see links. ]




[Only registered and activated users can see links. ]




[Only registered and activated users can see links. ]

The above picture is rather embarressing, and not just because their feet are in such terrible punching position. But it does goes to show you how they often had their arms extended to defend themselves.



I mean, it's not like they had a retarded stance like the real karate fighters:

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Old 05-12-2008, 05:08 PM   #25
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Default Re: The Evolution from Low Gaurd to High Gaurd

I think you guys are tying yourself in knots trying to defend the oldies. The UFC-gloves are small and thin enough to compare to bare knuckles and/or old, thin gloves. To claim that the very small differences in padding one way or another would completely change how you best utilise them is ludicrous. Once again: everyone who's watched UFC know how very small the margins for error are, since one good hit really ends it all. And those guys seldom punch as well as a pro boxer. I mean when Chuck Lidell lands his right cleanly it's lights out, and while he has a very good right it's not perfect IMO.

The thing is that the modern guard also offers protection for the solar plexus. The elbows usually just covers this area, and even for those with shorter arms you only have to lower them a short distance.

But I agree that karate stance is just too fairy. To believe that karate was considered cool back in the day...
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Old 05-12-2008, 05:16 PM   #26
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Default Re: The Evolution from Low Gaurd to High Gaurd

Quote:
Originally Posted by ChrisPontius
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The above picture is rather embarressing, and not just because their feet are in such terrible punching position. But it does goes to show you how they often had their arms extended to defend themselves.
Is this the same guy that would ko every modern heavyweight in one night?
I guess I now know where Rahman got his "mummy" defence from that worked so well against Lewis.
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Old 05-12-2008, 05:24 PM   #27
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Default Re: The Evolution from Low Gaurd to High Gaurd

[quote]
Quote:
Originally Posted by Sweet Pea
Single shots with MMA gloves often result in one punch KO's.
So I understand.

This makes me question whether the 4 oz horsehair gloves can have had the same effect given the amount of punishment that some fighters took from them.

Quote:
The smaller gloves have a smaller surface area, therefore don't allow for built up punishment like big gloves do, but when landed in the right spot, they put you out much easier, as they are more precise.
I think that this would be particularly true of body shots and might explain the low guard.

I notice that many old time fighters who used a low guard normaly adopted a higher guard when they went into a crouch and their solar plexus was not at risk.
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Old 05-12-2008, 05:30 PM   #28
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Default Re: The Evolution from Low Gaurd to High Gaurd

Love the "mummy" defence, I have been wondering what phrase could capture his novel approach - both arms straight out -, and you have NAILED it!

Quote:
Originally Posted by Kamus
Is this the same guy that would ko every modern heavyweight in one night?
I guess I now know where Rahman got his "mummy" defence from that worked so well against Lewis.
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Old 05-12-2008, 05:55 PM   #29
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Default Re: The Evolution from Low Gaurd to High Gaurd

BIG DEE HERE= The picture in which you are talking if you knew what the hell
you were talking about which you don`t once again is that Fitzsimmons and Corbett had just broken from a clinch. shoving each other away.
That`s way they are at arms length after shoving each other back.
They fought with their guards low because it saves energy in a long bout
that they fought at the time but when they got within punching range the guards came up high.
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Old 05-12-2008, 06:32 PM   #30
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Default Re: The Evolution from Low Gaurd to High Gaurd

Quote:
Originally Posted by Bokaj
I think you guys are tying yourself in knots trying to defend the oldies. The UFC-gloves are small and thin enough to compare to bare knuckles and/or old, thin gloves. To claim that the very small differences in padding one way or another would completely change how you best utilise them is ludicrous. Once again: everyone who's watched UFC know how very small the margins for error are, since one good hit really ends it all. And those guys seldom punch as well as a pro boxer. I mean when Chuck Lidell lands his right cleanly it's lights out, and while he has a very good right it's not perfect IMO.

The thing is that the modern guard also offers protection for the solar plexus. The elbows usually just covers this area, and even for those with shorter arms you only have to lower them a short distance.

But I agree that karate stance is just too fairy. To believe that karate was considered cool back in the day...
How is UFC stance even slightly relevant? Their main guard is against wrestling isnt it? I rarely bother to watch it, butwhat is the record for most number of punches absorbed in a fight? Actually, now i think about it, has anyone ever landed a body punch? I dont think i remeber ever seeing one.

One interesting comparison of the two stances, i find, is kick boxing. Not so much the guard high and low, but more the square, weight on the back foot stance. Kick boxers seem to really use that old fashioned foot positioning and weight on back foot stance.
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