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Old 07-18-2007, 11:29 AM   #16
Senya13
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Default Re: Sugar Ray Robinson v Roy Jones @ 168

Ability to take a punch? You mean the one he showed when he was dropped by Mitsos Grispos 1-14-3? As for getting dropped by Castellani, that's as bad as getting dropped by Sven Ottke (something people hold against Mundine). Dropped by non-puncher LaMotta.
Plus innumerable times when Robinson was hurt, like I said. He was way too easy to be hurt or staggered.
That's really great ability to take a punch.
As for speed, Robinson's speed at 160 was never anything special. Even at welterweight there were several fighters faster than him.
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Old 07-18-2007, 11:41 AM   #17
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Default Re: Sugar Ray Robinson v Roy Jones @ 168

[quote]
Quote:
Originally Posted by Senya13
Ability to take a punch? You mean the one he showed when he was dropped by Mitsos Grispos 1-14-3? As for getting dropped by Castellani, that's as bad as getting dropped by Sven Ottke (something people hold against Mundine). Dropped by non-puncher LaMotta.
Plus innumerable times when Robinson was hurt, like I said. He was way too easy to be hurt or staggered.
That's really great ability to take a punch.
Dude,

Robinson was stopped only once in 200 pro fights, and that was a TKO against an all time great light heavyweight, when he was past his prime, in the 14th of a 15 rounder ( something Jones never had the pleasure of participating in. ) So what if he was staggered or dropped a few times in his career? When you get into the ring 200 times in your life, it's bound to happen from time to time. Personally, I have no qualms about his durabilty.

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As for speed, Robinson's speed at 160 was never anything special. Even at welterweight there were several fighters faster than him.
That's highly debatable.
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Old 07-18-2007, 11:52 AM   #18
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Default Re: Sugar Ray Robinson v Roy Jones @ 168

Because Robinson didn't face any great punchers, that's why he was stopped only once. Levine and Graziano are the hardest-hitting fighters he met in his career, both dropped him. There are more than plenty of facts that leave us doubting his ability to withstand Jones' punching power at 160 and 168, and there are zero facts that leave us doubting Jones' same ability at 160 or 168. Jones would be by far the greatest puncher Robinson faced in his career, while Jones faced bigger punchers than Robinson and didn't show no signs of being hurt (until he was old and far past his prime).
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Old 07-18-2007, 12:17 PM   #19
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Default Re: Sugar Ray Robinson v Roy Jones @ 168

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]Because Robinson didn't face any great punchers, that's why he was stopped only once.
The hell he didn't.

Quote:
Levine and Graziano are the hardest-hitting fighters he met in his career, both dropped him.
While a prime Jones was outclassed by Montell Griffin, who wasn't even remotely in Robinson's league, and please don't argue that he was, because it'l be even more embarrasing than the time you called Shavers a journeyman.

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There are more than plenty of facts that leave us doubting his ability to withstand Jones' punching power at 160 and 168,
Because he was dropped a few times in 200 pro fights? Big f----ng deal. Anyone who has 200 career bouts is occassionaly going to get hurt, staggered, cut, dropped whatever. In 200 fights, Robinson was only TKO'd once by an all time great light heavyweight, when he was past his prime, and like I said, it was in the 14th round. Jones, on the otherhand fought only 56 times in his career, and was stopped on two occassions. Once came in the 2nd round, while the other came in the 9th. Both losses came against guys who were not exactly all time great material as Joey Maxim was who stopped Jones. You pointed out that Roy was past his prime, and I agree that he was, but you make no comcession for the fact that Ray was past his against Maxim. As usual you're inonsistant in your debating methods.

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Jones would be by far the greatest puncher Robinson faced in his career,
" By far " is a rather strong expression, and if power is Jones main asset in this fight, then I find it rather minescule compared to Robinson's all time great abilty as probably the best ring technician in history, wouldn't you think?
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Old 07-18-2007, 12:57 PM   #20
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Default Re: Sugar Ray Robinson v Roy Jones @ 168

Jones outclassed by Griffin? Where did see such fight? Marty Servo, Jose Basora, Georgie Abrams, Henry Brimm were light years behind of Jones, which didn't stop them from giving Sugar very tough close fights.

Guys with rock solid chins didn't get dropped here and there, including by non-punchers. Robinson's chin could be dented, a couple of times only lack of finishing abilities of his opponents allowed him to survive. Jones' punching power and finishing abilities at 160 and 168 were top notch, much better than anyone's Robinson faced. It's not like Ray couldn't be outboxed either, Tommy Bell and Bernard Docusen outboxed him early, although they faded as the fight went on.

By far suits Jones well, as he was a fearsome puncher at both 160 and 168, Top 3 hardest-hitter at 168 and at least a Top 10 hardest hitter at 160. The hardest hitter Robinson faced at middleweight was a small natural 154-pounder Rocky Graziano.
As for "best ring technician in history", you should watch more Robinson's fights, if you can get a hold of his 1940's fights you will see him relying a lot on his natural abilities (footwork, handspeed, angles) than on technical correctness.
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Old 07-18-2007, 12:58 PM   #21
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Default Re: Sugar Ray Robinson v Roy Jones @ 168

Senya, which of Robinson's fights from the 1940s do you have?
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Old 07-18-2007, 01:04 PM   #22
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Default Re: Sugar Ray Robinson v Roy Jones @ 168

I only have highlights, same as everyone else.
It was especially apparent in the amateurs (Valentine, Nonella, Ancona), but it can be seen in his pro bouts as well.
1946-02-05 Tony Riccio
1946-02-27 Cliff Beckett
1946-03-04 Sammy Angott
1947-05-16 Georgie Abrams
1949-06-07 Freddy Flores
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Old 07-18-2007, 01:34 PM   #23
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Default Re: Sugar Ray Robinson v Roy Jones @ 168

Robinson for sure just if would be on points on KO I think if he ran Roy could survive but with his very poor punch resistance who knows
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Old 07-18-2007, 05:03 PM   #24
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Default Re: Sugar Ray Robinson v Roy Jones @ 168

Roy all the way. Ray would take his licks but he hasn't go much for Roy at 168.
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Old 07-18-2007, 05:35 PM   #25
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Default Re: Sugar Ray Robinson v Roy Jones @ 168

very hard fight. robinson @ middleweight wasn't really impressive.

i would give roy a UD.
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Old 07-18-2007, 05:45 PM   #26
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Default Re: Sugar Ray Robinson v Roy Jones @ 168

Quote:
Originally Posted by Senya13
Artie Levine dropped Robinson hard (possible for longer than 10 seconds) at middleweight limit when Ray was 25 years old, in his prime.
Lurch,
he weighed 150lbs against Levine, not exactly a bonafide middleweight

In answer to this thread, I'd go with Jones at 168 too, a bridge too far perhaps
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Old 07-18-2007, 06:51 PM   #27
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Default Re: Sugar Ray Robinson v Roy Jones @ 168

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Originally Posted by Senya13
How many times was Robinson dropped at 160 and 168? What are reasons to doubt Jones' heart at these weights? All the rest (technique, hooks, footspeed, stamina, workrate, adaptability, ring generalship) Jones was better than 160/168 Robinson too, rather easily.
This is beyond nonsense.

What hook has Jones ever thrown that compares to Robinsons best left hooks?

Where has he proved his stamina and workrate to the degree that Robinson has in multiple fights - but in LaMotta VI more than any other single fight?

Where is Jones technique? Where is it now that he is not protected by his great speed and we would see? It is non-exsistant. Bernard Hopkins: "Roy Jones is a great Hall of Famer...But Roy never had the basics.

Floyd Matweather, a big fan, says something similair.

Apparantly you know better than these two.

Having read your statement, and I'm paraphrasing, "Roy Jones easily has better techniqhe than Robinson" I am quite happy to throw out everything you have to say on this matter as ridiculous.
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Old 07-18-2007, 06:54 PM   #28
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Default Re: Sugar Ray Robinson v Roy Jones @ 168

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Originally Posted by dmt
I think this is a tough fight, i really don't know but my guess is Jones wins at 168 due to better power and speed. but i'm still not sure.

But if u take the best version of Robbi at 160 then i think he beats Jones at 160.
This is probably how I see it, though I believe that even at 168 Robinson may be able to find a way to force Roy to force the action; if that happens he has a chance at 168.

Interesting how everyone saying, "Robinson at both weights" says just that then dissapears.

Apart from Senya who has scaled new heights for the totally bizzare.
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Old 07-18-2007, 07:02 PM   #29
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Default Re: Sugar Ray Robinson v Roy Jones @ 168

Quote:
Originally Posted by Senya13
Artie Levine dropped Robinson hard (possible for longer than 10 seconds) at middleweight limit when Ray was 25 years old, in his prime.
Rocky Graziano was a small middleweight at the end of his career. Robinson was 30 years old.
Rocky Castellani was never a puncher, this didn't stop him from dropping 34-years old Robinson for a 9-count.
That's not counting welterweight knockdowns and many fights where he was hurt.
But not kod ,as was Jones ,TWICE.
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Old 07-18-2007, 07:53 PM   #30
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Default Re: Sugar Ray Robinson v Roy Jones @ 168

Quote:
Originally Posted by Senya13
Artie Levine dropped Robinson hard (possible for longer than 10 seconds) at middleweight limit when Ray was 25 years old, in his prime.
Rocky Graziano was a small middleweight at the end of his career. Robinson was 30 years old.
Rocky Castellani was never a puncher, this didn't stop him from dropping 34-years old Robinson for a 9-count.
That's not counting welterweight knockdowns and many fights where he was hurt.
Is that not a testament to Robinson' recuperative powers, when once hurt he could turn the fight on its head.

How long did it take Roy to recuperate against Tarver II & G Johnson about 10 - 20 minutes each time, it kinda puts that 9-10 seconds (against Levine) into perspective doesnt it?


What is a great shame with regards to RJJ, is that your blind fascination with him prevents anyone else being able to indulge in the vast talents that Jones had
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