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Old 05-17-2008, 05:34 PM   #46
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Default Re: Should Joe C be happy with his legacy?

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Originally Posted by cityofgod
I think Joe has been expertly managed and 'sold' to the masses lately.

However, another 168lb fighter in Ottke reigned with his own world title for years and years at the same time as Joe and fought Tocker, Starie etc. Plus Glen Johnson and Rob 'the repairman' Reid (and he sneaked a decision too LOL )

Roy Jones bamboozles the Welshman in a prime for prime contest, so i certainly wouldn't say he's the best at 168 and Jones would have maybe knocked Joe at 175lb when Jones had the WBC, WBA, IBF, IBO, NABF titles around 6 or 7 years ago and was leagues above everyone.

Lacy & Kessler were on no pound for pound lists - and Hopkins was slipping fast off the top of that list and at 43, was unable to sustain the superior work over Calzaghe in the latter rounds.

Hopkins dropped him and took him for a split - hardly mesmerising work from Calzaghe, who'd promised to 'knock Hopkins out as only a KO will do"

If he'd fought Glencoffe Johnson, Hopkins 5 years ago and maybe fought Jones (but lost) i'd have the utmost respect for him.

But as it stands he has fought everyone on his own terms - and the 'legend killer' tag he has gave himself is slightly embarrassing.

But not as embarrassing as his cuffing, skimming, slapping 'punches' !


Everyone keeps throwing Johnson in there as if he's up there with Hopkins and Jones. He's not. Johnson, although it would of been a decent win wouldn't even be a top 5 in JC's resume as it stands, based on Johnson's work at 168. He lost to Sheika who in turn lost to whom? Johnson after his win over Jones at 175 would of been a better scalp but not as impressive as Lacy or Kessler at 168.
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Old 05-17-2008, 05:38 PM   #47
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Default Re: Should Joe C be happy with his legacy?

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Originally Posted by Smazz20
Everyone keeps throwing Johnson in there as if he's up there with Hopkins and Jones. He's not. Johnson, although it would of been a decent win wouldn't even be a top 5 in JC's resume as it stands, based on Johnson's work at 168. He lost to Sheika who in turn lost to whom? Johnson after his win over Jones at 175 would of been a better scalp but not as impressive as Lacy or Kessler at 168.
Agreed - but Johnson then went on to make noise at LHW - a tough fighter who can bang a bit, is pretty unKOable and would have enhanced his legacy more than Manfredo + Tudwill + McIntyre have done together.
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Old 05-17-2008, 05:56 PM   #48
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Default Re: Should Joe C be happy with his legacy?

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Originally Posted by PrideOfWales
Joe will be pleased for a while if it all ended tomorrow. After a number of years, he will think about the undefeated part and wonder why nobody ever beat him. He has clearly been managed into certain situations but he's always been happy to go along with that for the most part.

When all is said and done, I hope Calzaghe will be frustrated that he never tested himself against the very best in his era at the right time - a prime Jones has been mentioned, the fight that fell through against Johnson will irk, never putting Ottke in his place will frustrate and not trying to unify the division sooner. It sounds like a long list for a stellar boxer and it's too long for Joe to be regarded as one of the very best.

He's had a brilliant career, had some fantastic wins, some thrilling fights and always looked to go forward - never has he taken a backwards step and he can be very proud of that. But there will come a time when he thinks about the bigger picture and the one question he will ask himself to which he or nobody else will have an answer to is "How good was Joe Calzaghe?".. Could he have beaten a prime Roy Jones? Probably not, but he never got near enough to the right kind of competition to probe further.

This is an excellent post in my opinion

This was the kind of thing I was thinking about when I opened the thread.
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Old 05-17-2008, 06:16 PM   #49
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Default Re: Should Joe C be happy with his legacy?

I think he still could make a couple of fights before retiring that would be great for his legacy.

Pavlik in the second semester, then Roy Jr/Tarver/Dawson at 2009.
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Old 05-18-2008, 10:16 AM   #50
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Default Re: Should Joe C be happy with his legacy?

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Originally Posted by PrideOfWales
Agreed - but Johnson then went on to make noise at LHW - a tough fighter who can bang a bit, is pretty unKOable and would have enhanced his legacy more than Manfredo + Tudwill + McIntyre have done together.

Certainly. Throw in Larsen, Braehmer, Beyer, Green even a Reid rematch. I can forgive a few tomato cans but Joe has far too many on his resume. As you said, he could of unified 168 way earlier with a fight against Ottke. Then he could of moved to 175 and become a 2 weight title holder by fighting DM and maybe of got his shot at Jones. But that's all past now and we'll never know just how good he really was.
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Old 05-18-2008, 10:39 AM   #51
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Default Re: Should Joe C be happy with his legacy?

Quote:
Originally Posted by PrideOfWales
Joe will be pleased for a while if it all ended tomorrow. After a number of years, he will think about the undefeated part and wonder why nobody ever beat him. He has clearly been managed into certain situations but he's always been happy to go along with that for the most part.

When all is said and done, I hope Calzaghe will be frustrated that he never tested himself against the very best in his era at the right time - a prime Jones has been mentioned, the fight that fell through against Johnson will irk, never putting Ottke in his place will frustrate and not trying to unify the division sooner. It sounds like a long list for a stellar boxer and it's too long for Joe to be regarded as one of the very best.

He's had a brilliant career, had some fantastic wins, some thrilling fights and always looked to go forward - never has he taken a backwards step and he can be very proud of that. But there will come a time when he thinks about the bigger picture and the one question he will ask himself to which he or nobody else will have an answer to is "How good was Joe Calzaghe?".. Could he have beaten a prime Roy Jones? Probably not, but he never got near enough to the right kind of competition to probe further.
Absolutely spot on

There WILL be question marks in years to come

That's not to say I question his ability. But we just never got to see him at his best against his contemporaries at theirs.

So Joe's place amongst Rjj, Hopkins and the like will remain forever a guessing game, even in Joe's mind I'd have thought
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Old 05-18-2008, 12:24 PM   #52
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Default Re: Should Joe C be happy with his legacy?

There will always be question marks when a fighters unbeaten.
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Old 05-18-2008, 02:17 PM   #53
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Default Re: Should Joe C be happy with his legacy?

His only regret may be not fighting in America sooner and when he was in his prime.

If he retired tomorrow then he retires unified world super middle champion, ring champion at 168 and 175, undefeated with names such as Eubank, Kessler and Hopkins on his resume and a multi-millionaire.

I would say he'll be extremely happy overall.
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Old 05-18-2008, 02:28 PM   #54
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Default Re: Should Joe C be happy with his legacy?

he cant fulfill his potential anymore. he is too old.

i remember seeing him when he was in his late 20´s.........and he was something.
but he wasted his time making money fighting guys like tucker pudwill or branco shobot.

his win over kessler was nice for the hardcore fan.................but kessler was an unkown in the usa.

and getting off the floor and just scraping by a 43 year old bernard hopkins will not get him remembered to fondly by historians.

he needs a top american star in his prime...........and really kick his ass. AND he has to do it in the USA!!!

kelly pavlik or arthur abraham would do it imo..........whoever wins when they meet.

in the meantime he cant waste his time facing alphabet jokes.

he should beat dawson or tarver.

and he better look good doing so.

were he say 28 right now, i think he could impressively beat them all.

but now it may be too late.

and joe has only himself to blame for it.
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Old 05-18-2008, 02:39 PM   #55
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Default Re: Should Joe C be happy with his legacy?

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Originally Posted by bumdujour
he cant fulfill his potential anymore. he is too old.

i remember seeing him when he was in his late 20´s.........and he was something.
but he wasted his time making money fighting guys like tucker pudwill or branco shobot.

his win over kessler was nice for the hardcore fan.................but kessler was an unkown in the usa.

and getting off the floor and just scraping by a 43 year old bernard hopkins will not get him remembered to fondly by historians.

he needs a top american star in his prime...........and really kick his ass. AND he has to do it in the USA!!!

kelly pavlik or arthur abraham would do it imo..........whoever wins when they meet.

in the meantime he cant waste his time facing alphabet jokes.

he should beat dawson or tarver.

and he better look good doing so.

were he say 28 right now, i think he could impressively beat them all.

but now it may be too late.

and joe has only himself to blame for it.
Worked for Marciano.

Ive already spoken extensively on this subject but what I will say is when people judge Joe negatively they generally focus on who he didn't fight as opposed to who he did fight. When one considers his comp from 1997 to 2003 and from 2006 to 2008 it's actually very ****ing good: various factors prevented it from being better still.

Politics played a huge role. Any fan beyond the superficial haters know that looking a bit deeper the big fights that didn't come off were not really Calzaghe's fault at all.

He's sure as hell making up for it now. If he fights and whoops Pavlik he will have beaten everyone worth beating bar another hyped prospect in Dawson from 160 to 175.

Now that is something.
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Old 05-18-2008, 03:21 PM   #56
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Default Re: Should Joe C be happy with his legacy?

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Originally Posted by Beatboxer
Politics played a huge role. Any fan beyond the superficial haters know that looking a bit deeper the big fights that didn't come off were not really Calzaghe's fault at all.
He did virtually nothing to get any of the "big fights", that's plain to see if you're not a Joe loverboy.
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Old 05-18-2008, 03:27 PM   #57
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Default Re: Should Joe C be happy with his legacy?

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Originally Posted by SleazeNation
He did virtually nothing to get any of the "big fights", that's plain to see if you're not a Joe loverboy.
You have a cheek accusing Fluxstuff of being obsessed you just Loveee quoting my posts and trying to draw me into a debate
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Old 05-18-2008, 03:36 PM   #58
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Default Re: Should Joe C be happy with his legacy?

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You have a cheek accusing Fluxstuff of being obsessed you just Loveee quoting my posts and trying to draw me into a debate
I can guarantee that I've never mentioned your name in a thread you've never posted in.
Let alone numerous threads, like fluxstuff and indeed others have about me.

...And I don't want a debate, hence not posting for 4 pages. I really can't be bothered anymore, the 12 pages we had on Calzaghe were my first posts in this forum and I didn't know that there were certain posters who love the guy irrationally and there is no point debating with blind love. I wouldn't have bothered even then if I'd known the individual posters feelings better.
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Old 05-18-2008, 03:48 PM   #59
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Default Re: Should Joe C be happy with his legacy?

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Originally Posted by SleazeNation
I can guarantee that I've never mentioned your name in a thread you've never posted in.
Let alone numerous threads, like fluxstuff and indeed others have about me.

...And I don't want a debate, hence not posting for 4 pages. I really can't be bothered anymore, the 12 pages we had on Calzaghe were my first posts in this forum and I didn't know that there were certain posters who love the guy irrationally and there is no point debating with blind love. I wouldn't have bothered even then if I'd known the individual posters feelings better.
I made you famous, my biggest regret.

I did kick your ass up and down the forum though for a few weeks that was fun

But we agree on one thing: I don't want another 12 pages of me breaking down your argument to the point you contradict yourself again

Stick to the Hatton sackswinging though. There's a void to be filled there: plenty of Calzaghe haters in the general
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Old 05-18-2008, 03:54 PM   #60
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Default Re: Should Joe C be happy with his legacy?

Quote:
Originally Posted by Beatboxer

He's sure as hell making up for it now. If he fights and whoops Pavlik he will have beaten everyone worth beating bar another hyped prospect in Dawson from 160 to 175.

Now that is something.
In reality:

He will have beaten by a whisker a 43 year old, a fighter many see as nothing special, and an upcoming boxer from two weights divisions below.

Eubank on Kessler

"I watched the guy Mikkel Kessler when I was in Las Vegas in April, and he's ordinary.
"He can't fight going back or counter punch "
"If you consciously know range and angles you shouldn't have a problem with this guy."


Fair play to Joe, there a V good set of Victories, but in reality those three wins are not,

"Now that is really something."
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