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Old 07-18-2007, 08:47 AM   #1
garymcfall
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Default You are Mike Tysons trainer

He has just signed to fight Lewis in 2002, and you are his trainer. You know he is a shadow of his former self but you have to construct a strategy for him to stand the best chance of winning. What do you have him concentrate on in both training and how does he go about trying to beat Lennox?
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Old 07-18-2007, 08:56 AM   #2
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Default Re: You are Mike Tysons trainer

It would be futile and an unsurmountable task for Tyson. At that stage he was just plain shot and no amount of revised training or strategy would enable him to beat Lewis in 2002. However, a Tyson from 87-88 would use his head movement and timing to evade Lewis's shots, get in close and use his explosive power and hand speed to take Lewis out.

Just my opinion of course.
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Old 07-18-2007, 09:08 AM   #3
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Default Re: You are Mike Tysons trainer

The thing is mike tyson knows his boxing,and deep down he knew himself what he would have to do to have a chance to beat lewis..

That were to train his ass off like when he was that 16yr old prodigy and also to beleive in himself..11o% belief..

Lets be honest if mc call and rahmans shots can ko lewis imagine what a guy like tyson with his two fists of stones could of done to lewis??it wasnt going to happen in 02..tyson was long done by than..very sad to say..

Im a huge tyson fan..OBVIOUS..but i will always say he was the biggest underacheiver in professional sport...he was the complete fighter..well skilled with good speed and top shelf power in both fists..Also possessed a granite chin and great defence...(ALL THESE IN HIS PRIME)

Due to his weakness towards modern societies trapings(***,drugs and sluts)
we will never know how good he could of really been.

I reckon if he didnt **** anything up he would of been long retired by 02 and atleast had a 50-0 record with a his milestone win being against lewis in around 97....Instead he lost to the likes of douglas,williams,mcbride.

He will die a legend and hall of famer and we will continue to speak positves and negetives about him for many years to come.The one thing i wish i could say about tyson is that he was the greatest fighter of all time..

SADLY I CANT....we will have to stick with ali...which i aint happy with..



I beleive
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Old 07-18-2007, 09:22 AM   #4
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Default Re: You are Mike Tysons trainer

The problem by '02 for Tyson is that he just could not generate the sustained explosiveness he had earlier in his career. We saw snippets of it in round one, but by 2002 Tyson was maybe a 4 round fighter, at best.

Why could he not sustain that explosiveness? Maybe age, maybe wear and tear - it's hard to say. I think Tyson merely peaked early. There were already signs of him not quite being the same guy as early as the Williams fight. Maybe it was down to neglecting the groundwork laid down by Cus and Rooney. Tyson had lost much of his desire by then.

I think he came in at 239 for Lewis, or was that 234? Anyway, he was carrying far too much weight. His best performances were all when he weighed under 220.

I don't think there's too much Tyson could have done differently for the Lewis fight to be honest. He looked in shape, albeit at too high a weight. Maybe the problem is that he tried to be the 'old' Tyson again...all reflexes and explosive offense, but that's strictly a young man's style. He wasn't old chronologically, but he was old in ring terms.

Thing is, Lewis enjoyed such height and reach advantages over Tyson, that Mike could not have realistically adopted a different style.
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Old 07-18-2007, 09:52 AM   #5
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Default Re: You are Mike Tysons trainer

Hmm...okay. Bear in mind I've never stepped in the ring myself though!


Obviously, looking for a points verdict is out of the window. Even with maximum training, Tyson 2002 is very unlikely to be able to go all 12, especially against a fighter like Lewis.

So we're looking at a window of opportunity of about 3 or 4 rounds. After that point, Tyson's stamina just won't be up to the task of both defending and attacking effectively.

Disavow Mike of falling into the trap (which he admitted later he did) that all he needs to do is march right up to Lewis and hit him with a big hail-mary for the win. That was not the be-all-and-end-all of why McCall and Rahman won, and too many other Lewis opponents ended up with a loss due to such optimism. You need to work to a specific plan to achieve a knockout, not just bomb away and hope.

To begin with, forget about the head. Yes, I know it's tempting Mike, but forget about it. Keep down low in a crouch, circle to your right, make it harder for him to reach down with those jabs, and you need to keep your hooks aimed at his body. Don't be afraid to double-jab your way in.

When you get in close, fire up on the inside with your uppercuts. Working up the inside should be a big priority, don't swing the shots in from the sides...throw them upwards instead. If he leans over to tire you out, even better. But keep the focus on the body, you need to get his hands to drop. Big combinations aren't even necessary, 1-2s will do fine so long as you keep a steady rate going.

In a perfect world, you've you've been able to work that body some and the hands have dropped a bit. Assuming you haven't rung his bell with a uppercut already, start coming under with your left hook. Not overhand, under, you'll be missing all day with overhand shots. Firing to the body and then the head should pay dividends.

That's about all I can suggest really!
It would definitely be a difficult task, but that's what makes threads like these fun
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Old 07-18-2007, 10:12 AM   #6
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Default Re: You are Mike Tysons trainer

Quote:
Originally Posted by DamonD
Hmm...okay. Bear in mind I've never stepped in the ring myself though!


Obviously, looking for a points verdict is out of the window. Even with maximum training, Tyson 2002 is very unlikely to be able to go all 12, especially against a fighter like Lewis.

So we're looking at a window of opportunity of about 3 or 4 rounds. After that point, Tyson's stamina just won't be up to the task of both defending and attacking effectively.

Disavow Mike of falling into the trap (which he admitted later he did) that all he needs to do is march right up to Lewis and hit him with a big hail-mary for the win. That was not the be-all-and-end-all of why McCall and Rahman won, and too many other Lewis opponents ended up with a loss due to such optimism. You need to work to a specific plan to achieve a knockout, not just bomb away and hope.

To begin with, forget about the head. Yes, I know it's tempting Mike, but forget about it. Keep down low in a crouch, circle to your right, make it harder for him to reach down with those jabs, and you need to keep your hooks aimed at his body. Don't be afraid to double-jab your way in.

When you get in close, fire up on the inside with your uppercuts. Working up the inside should be a big priority, don't swing the shots in from the sides...throw them upwards instead. If he leans over to tire you out, even better. But keep the focus on the body, you need to get his hands to drop. Big combinations aren't even necessary, 1-2s will do fine so long as you keep a steady rate going.

In a perfect world, you've you've been able to work that body some and the hands have dropped a bit. Assuming you haven't rung his bell with a uppercut already, start coming under with your left hook. Not overhand, under, you'll be missing all day with overhand shots. Firing to the body and then the head should pay dividends.

That's about all I can suggest really!
It would definitely be a difficult task, but that's what makes threads like these fun
That sounds pretty sensible and fairly similar to what i was going to suggest, trying to force Lewis to the ropes and hitting the body , giving him no time for 3 rounds, going all out.
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Old 07-18-2007, 10:54 AM   #7
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Default Re: You are Mike Tysons trainer

On the other hand, tobkhan's "surprise attack" tactic could make for a fun fight!

I never thought of having Tyson play possum like that, heh...he'd have the chin to do it. Cuts and swelling on the eyes could be a problem though, hard to hit a target when you can't see it right.
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Old 07-18-2007, 11:07 AM   #8
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Default Re: You are Mike Tysons trainer

Quote:
Originally Posted by tobkhan
Hm, firstly i would have him train really hard, he has to come in under 220 pounds to be more mobile. In the lead up for the fight i would organize guys like Wlad as a sparring partner to imitate Lewis. I would have him to watch McCall-Lewis and Rahman-Lewis again and again everyday. Imo a big part of the loss is because Lennox was in Mike´s head, he just has to be as sure of his win as possible.

In the acutal fight i would let him start slow, giving away the first 3-4 rounds, telling him he should be as defensive as possible and just looking for not getting KOed or TKOed. The target would be to make Lewis feel sure, that guy has to think Mike is shot and that he has the fight in the pocket. Then, when the possibility is there, because of a mistake of Louis, he should explode, going all put absolutly surprising Lewis who then would panic. With good timing in that attack he could take Lewis out in the 5th or 6th. If not, well, than Lewis would cruise to an easy KO victory.
Two things wrong with that. As fighters Age they naturally get bigger, coming in at 220 or less would have been unrealistic. Coming in at 225 would have been ok. There is gamble in which Tyson would have to take by giving away rounds to a puncher of Lewis's calibre. A sudden burst would be good if he can go 5-6 rounds taking punishment without much retaliation.

He has the durability to do so but Lewis with Manny in his corner would stick to a strict gameplan that would Mike playing possum very risky....Interesting plan though
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Old 07-18-2007, 11:27 AM   #9
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Default Re: You are Mike Tysons trainer

Nice comments, Ozzie. Mission nearly impossible for Tyson to beat Lewis in '02, because: 1) physically he had lost the suppleness and speed of his youth. 2) most importantly, he had forever lost the eye of the tiger since way back in 1989.

Tyson did "Lewis-Tyson is on" just for the money. The idealism of his youth was long dead.

I would try to rekindle the fire and work with his great knowledge to together devise a plan he would stick with for 12 rounds. Sometimes I feel he in his mind just brushed off his post-Rooney trainers. Tyson knew what to do. The real question was: would he do it? Sadly, the answer was no.
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Old 07-18-2007, 11:34 AM   #10
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Default Re: You are Mike Tysons trainer

Interesting strategy, Tob, but it reminds me of Foreman after Zaire, learning to "pace" himself under Gil Clancy and unraveling to the fiasco in San Juan. Tyson's nature as a fighter is to be the attacker; better to get back the eye of the tiger.
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Old 07-18-2007, 12:22 PM   #11
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Default Re: You are Mike Tysons trainer

Quote:
Originally Posted by ozziebattler
The thing is mike tyson knows his boxing,and deep down he knew himself what he would have to do to have a chance to beat lewis..

That were to train his ass off like when he was that 16yr old prodigy and also to beleive in himself..11o% belief..

Lets be honest if mc call and rahmans shots can ko lewis imagine what a guy like tyson with his two fists of stones could of done to lewis??it wasnt going to happen in 02..tyson was long done by than..very sad to say..

Im a huge tyson fan..OBVIOUS..but i will always say he was the biggest underacheiver in professional sport...he was the complete fighter..well skilled with good speed and top shelf power in both fists..Also possessed a granite chin and great defence...(ALL THESE IN HIS PRIME)

Due to his weakness towards modern societies trapings(***,drugs and sluts)
we will never know how good he could of really been.

I reckon if he didnt **** anything up he would of been long retired by 02 and atleast had a 50-0 record with a his milestone win being against lewis in around 97....Instead he lost to the likes of douglas,williams,mcbride.

He will die a legend and hall of famer and we will continue to speak positves and negetives about him for many years to come.The one thing i wish i could say about tyson is that he was the greatest fighter of all time..

SADLY I CANT....we will have to stick with ali...which i aint happy with..



I beleive
Uh yeah sorry clever to go immortalising a rapist thug who we can only ever speculate about what he could have been, but he never beat anyone.
Tyson is just a modern day media creation. and you have been sucked fully into the hype.
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Old 07-18-2007, 12:25 PM   #12
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Default Re: You are Mike Tysons trainer

Tyson only knew one way to fight, and he could never have beaten Lewis, his ultimate failing the complete lack of an inside game visisble from the start of his career. Lewis' jab and much better inside game would always shut Tyson out, and the best he could do was just throw combinations, but after only a couple of rounds in the fight he stopped throwing any leather afraid of getting tagged in return, although his corner were terrible.
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Old 07-18-2007, 12:46 PM   #13
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Default Re: You are Mike Tysons trainer

Before training camp opens, I would take Tyson to visit Liston's lonely and weedy grave and read the epitaph ("a man"). Tyson looked at himself as a Liston prototype and is very aware of how Liston squandered his legacy with 2 lamentable and life-changing decisions (Clay -where he didn't train. Ali -where he took a dive). Tyson would be reminded daily that he can decide to destroy Lewis for his greatest win and launch himself into the greatness that Liston lost; Or, he can go the way of Liston and die miserably with dreams of what might have been.

I would push for a three month training camp -in Big Bear and the structure would be severe. He needs it. All of the thugs and mooches in his life would be banned under threat of being shot on site. There would be alot of film analysis. Dempsey-Willard, & Duran-Barkley would be watched and analyzed for 2 reasons. First, because Tyson loved both of them and second because they are studies in how to deal with superior size, reach, and strength.

It would also be critical to consider his emotional well-being and self-esteem issues -at least temporarily. How, a therapist? No. by discussing legacy -what it means, what it meant to the Legends that Tyson has always admired and emulated, and how he can save his ring legacy with one win. This one.

Tyson would have to train like he used to train -mentally, emotionally, and physically. The day would begin and the evening would end with discussion -about character, about legacy, about history. I'm running with him at 4.

I would have inspiring figures come by once a week or so for an hour. Duran. McCallum. Hagler. Julian Jackson. As many heavy-handed, never-say-die old-timers that I could find. Peter Marciano would offer a seminar about the determination and total self-belief of his brother, who was almost always outgunned. During the last weeks of camp, I'd bring in Rooney and/or Atlas to make piece and if Tyson was comfortable, one of them would play Ray Arcel to my Freddie Brown.

I'd get Tyson as close to 218 as he could while being at optimum strength. No music, no towel, no socks en route to the ring. Tyson would look as if it were 1988. He would feel as he did in his prime. He would be convinced that he has captured thunder and lightening like Zeus. And is only there to deliver it off of Lewis's susceptible chin.

Strategy. Tyson would be conditioned to start the first round strong. He would be told to win it. This to increase his confidence and force Lennox to think defensively (Tyson would be allowed to come forward. Which is critical to the plan). He would have to reclaim that elusivity and slip his way inside. Banging the body. If Lennox got hurt, then Tyson would be instructed to be aggressive in a controlled manner until he finished him. If Lennox was strong, he would decrease output but increase efficiency. Constant head movement, constant angles, stay at mid to close range where he would get close enough to the big man without getting leaned on or smothered. Shoot, but shoot carefully with brief combinations. Start in with overhands around round 5. No wild punches. Overhands only when they have a chance of landing.

Tyson greatest liability in the ring is in his head. All means to promote his self-belief would be utilized in the camp and between rounds. I'd tell him that the pain now is nothing -it will only bless the triumph. This is about

"who you are and the rest of your life."
"Nothing else matters."
"You are Beowulf. Dent his chin."
"Get closer, set up the shots and throw 'em short."

If things started getting bad and Tyson started falling apart, I'd see if I could sneak an ipod into his hear with Cus's voice talking about using fear as a hero should.
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Old 07-18-2007, 12:48 PM   #14
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At that point in his career - Tyson would have little chance of beating Lewis under any circumstances. Strategies you guys suggest would enhance this chance - but the chance would still be much too small to count on. He simply needed to be at his physical best to beat Lewis and that is not possible at 35 years. You cannot bring back the much needed speed and reflexes of even a 1996 Tyson nor can you undo the extensive ring rust he suffered. With this, I'd do everything I could to avoid the Lewis fight - even if it meant instigating a minor injury to postpone and ultimately cancel the fight.

Mike Tyson is known for not cooperating with his trainers (how many times did he switch) and for not ad******g his strategy when things are not going his way against all time great opponents. This venture is useless. For my first point alone, no kind of strategy would help him enough to win. Tyson starting out slow in round 1 is not a good idea: Lewis was not the kind of guy to be fooled by possum. He didn't care that Tyson was a dead man for several rounds - he still patiently softened him up with his jab, kept a long distance to avoid getting caught, and didn't go for a spectacular finish as he did with Golota or Ruddock. Look at the patient KO and you see what I mean. Look at McCall II - Lewis didn't take chances.

With that strategy, Lewis would soften up Tyson in a boring affair, probably land a few hurting punches from a distance and at that point in his career, Tyson would give up all ideas of any strategy and just go flat footed. His highest intenisty was in round 1 - and he could not replicate that in mid rounds after what Lewis would do to him. Tyson simply did not have the "body" speed to lunge and catch Lewis at that point of his career. It is convential boxing wisdom that you can't rely on even one good timed punch but need a series of punches.

Nevertheless, I don't want to be a bore so I'll try to talk in terms of this thread: I'd tell Tyson to use his STRAIGHT right hand lead that served him so well through out the career rather than the loopy and easier to predict left hook. I would not have known of Lewis' speed in backpeddling as we found out in round 1. I'd tell Tyson to fight exactly as he fought Holyfield in round 1 (did you see how many straight rights he attemped and landed - I actually gave this round to Tyson - and after hearing Holy reveal his strategy after the fight - we saw why it worked so well). Use the combination where he throws a measuring jab and then follow that with a right hook (this is what he used against Holmes - it was brilliant - you saw Holmes distracted with the jab and BAM came the right hook). A 2 punch combination is reasonable.

(1) Throw the LUNGING right hand lead against Lewis as he successfully did with Holyfield & Holmes. Tough punch to see and Tyson did have some hand speed even then.

(2) Stand flat, STATIONARY, positon his right hand lead like the way Ali did against Ziare (of course having Ali's reach was critical in the success of the lead but the Lewis-Tyson fight was fought in close counters many times). Launch the right hand lead when he sees an opening and the speed will hopefully allow it to land. It worked in the first minute against Holy when Tyson used it (and then abandoned it because the man doesn't know strategy but goes wild). Holy wasn't even able to react to it. Once the right lands follow up with a left hook.

The right hand lead is the fastest and hardest punch to see - this would be Tyson's key punch in the fight. Rely on STRAIGHT punches. Also, the right hand lead of type I may get a 1 punch KO. The right hand lead of type 2 may not - Lewis had a better chin than given credit for. Even when Vitali landed a good punch Lewis was hurt but could recover. Gotta follow up type 2 punch with a left hook to get the KO.

Tyson's best effort must be in round 1 - he could not win steadily (because he couldn't fight for long) but win based on short INTEnSiTY that overwhelmes Lewis.
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Old 07-18-2007, 01:01 PM   #15
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Quote:
Originally Posted by Stonehands89
Tyson would look as if it were 1988. He would feel as he did in his prime. He would be convinced that he has captured thunder and lightening like Zeus.He would have to reclaim that elusivity and slip his way inside. Banging the body. If Lennox got hurt, then Tyson would be instructed to be aggressive in a controlled manner until he finished him.
IMO, these are descriptions of a 1988 Tyson - you can do a falsetto and make it LOOK like 1988 - but it could not be 1988 again. This CHARADE would fall flat as soon as Tyson gets tagged with a big right hand. You do bring a good point though - Tyson should be very well conditioned and healthy. While he did show stone chin against Lewis - clearly he did not take the punches as well as he did against Ruddock and this is because of youth and conditioning.

Not to discredit Lewis - I do think he was superior puncher than Ruddock. But Ruddock did land punches just as deadly as Lewis but Tyson took those better (such fast recovery to land his own when those punches would have KO'd lesser men - this is against Ruddock). The reason is because Tyson was much more fit against Ruddock - so he recuperate faster. If Tyson had the ability to take a punch as he did in 1991 - then even if Lewis landed a big punch, Tyson could take it and come back with his own - Tyson has shown the ability to do so and I'd predict he could do it even with a massive punch from Lennox.
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