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Old 07-18-2007, 01:05 PM   #16
Stonehands89
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Default Re: You are Mike Tysons trainer

Hobgoblin, I disagree that a 35 year old Tyson's chances would be futile for at least 4 reasons. This is boxing. These are Heavyweights. Tyson could still punch like hell. Lewis had a suspect chin. I also gave Tyson round 1... and furthermore there were at least three shots that could have closed the show if he was closer.

I do not believe that any of Tyson's trainers after Rooney understood and applied the emotional training that he needed. The foundation of Tyson's success was not his power or speed, it was his confidence and his "community" -however artificially prescribed. This is not to say that he would have been willing to accept such a throwback style training camp. It is to say that Tyson did have the tools to defeat Lewis. They had laid dormant and untapped for years, but enough remnants remained.
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Old 07-18-2007, 01:10 PM   #17
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Quote:
Originally Posted by hobgoblin
IMO, these are descriptions of a 1988 Tyson - you can do a falsetto and make it LOOK like 1988 - but it could not be 1988 again. This CHARADE would fall flat as soon as Tyson gets tagged with a big right hand. You do bring a good point though - Tyson should be very well conditioned and healthy. While he did show stone chin against Lewis - clearly he did not take the punches as well as he did against Ruddock and this is because of youth and conditioning.

Not to discredit Lewis - I do think he was superior puncher than Ruddock. But Ruddock did land punches just as deadly as Lewis but Tyson took those better (such fast recovery to land his own when those punches would have KO'd lesser men - this is against Ruddock). The reason is because Tyson was much more fit against Ruddock - so he recuperate faster. If Tyson had the ability to take a punch as he did in 1991 - then even if Lewis landed a big punch, Tyson could take it and come back with his own - Tyson has shown the ability to do so and I'd predict he could do it even with a massive punch from Lennox.
1988? No. The post is about perception, not reality. Tyson knew how to slip punches and knew how to get inside. He devolved into a slugger but that was a training problem with roots in a relationship problem.

His strategy would be about tapping into what was, not rewinding the clock. Efficiency, not youthful output. You admit that Tyson's recuperative ability would be enhanced had he been in shape. Add to that a strategy that relies on efficient output instead of slugging until the half empty gas tank was exhausted. He wouldn't have been hit as much either because defense would be emphasized.
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Old 07-18-2007, 01:10 PM   #18
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Default Re: You are Mike Tysons trainer

Manny Steward wasn't shitting bricks and screaming between rounds because Tyson was no threat.
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Old 07-18-2007, 01:23 PM   #19
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Quote:
Originally Posted by Stonehands89
Tyson could still punch like hell. Lewis had a suspect chin.
ABSOLUTELY! That is why I even give him a chance at all. However, we know that that relying on landing one big haymaker against a top fighter is usually unsuccessful.

Quote:
Originally Posted by Stonehands89
I also gave Tyson round 1
I'm a big Tyson fan but it was Lewis who landed the meaningful punches andit was Tyson who left that round hurt and unable to recover as well as he would in his youth. Tyson was the aggressor but Lewis dealt with hit and dished his own. Btw, in Holy-Tyson I, I gave round 1 to Tyson whereas 90% of Tyson fans gave it to Holy (online poll during the fight - they probably didn't realize that this would be one of Tyson's best rounds so they put a high standard on him).

Quote:
Originally Posted by Stonehands89
The foundation of Tyson's success was not his power or speed, it was his confidence and his "community" -however artificially prescribed.
I strongly disagree. His physical attributes alone carried him in many fights, regardles of him not having the mentality of an Arthuro Gatti or a Rocky Marciano or even a Lennox Lewis.

Quote:
Originally Posted by Stonehands89
I do not believe that any of Tyson's trainers after Rooney understood and applied the emotional training that he needed. The foundation of Tyson's success was not his power or speed, it was his confidence and his "community" -however artificially prescribed. This is not to say that he would have been willing to accept such a throwback style training camp. It is to say that Tyson did have the tools to defeat Lewis. They had laid dormant and untapped for years, but enough remnants remained.
What are the chances of being able to deal with Tyson's craziness? The man was on psychoactive drugs at the time. I'm sure that if you and I were to try to deal with him mentally - we'd run away frustrated. No one was able to deal with Tyson's mind after prison IMO. Wouldn't count on it but it is a noble effort.

My $0.02
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Old 07-18-2007, 01:56 PM   #20
Stonehands89
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Default Re: You are Mike Tysons trainer

You are right about the craziness... but this is fantasy, yes? I believe that my tesosterone-laced, therapeutic approach would have the best chance of success. It answers the child in him as well as the beast.

Also, keep in mind that Tyson was incredibly insecure and unsure of who he is. All of that physical force goes out the window if you don't have the emotional engines. If Tyson had the mentality that he had in 2003 in 1986, he would have been no greater than Cooney. Every punch you throw in the ring is not first launched by a pivot or a turning hip... it is launched by the belief in the punch.

Show me a man in the ring who doesn't believe in his punches and I'll show you a horizontal man.

Last edited by Bo Bo Olson; 03-14-2006 at 08:14 AM.
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Old 07-18-2007, 02:00 PM   #21
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Default Re: You are Mike Tysons trainer

As crazy as this might sound, in today's division, if Tyson gets himself in great shape, takes a lot of those tune-up exhibitions like that Sanders deal, and consistent fights like Foreman had to get sharp again, he could win a title. He just needs to avoid the big monsters, but if he can get a smaller type guy, he's got a puncher's chance.
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Old 07-18-2007, 02:19 PM   #22
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Quote:
Originally Posted by apollack
As crazy as this might sound, in today's division, if Tyson gets himself in great shape, takes a lot of those tune-up exhibitions like that Sanders deal, and consistent fights like Foreman had to get sharp again, he could win a title. He just needs to avoid the big monsters, but if he can get a smaller type guy, he's got a puncher's chance.
As soon as someone quits against Kevin McBride - you know he doesn't belong inside the ropes. It was RIDICULOUS to pick McBride over Tyson - but what happened?

Can't compare to Foreman - Foreman's best assets remained with him in 1990s by nature i.e. size, power, chin, etc. Tyson doesn't have the speed or reflexes that served him welll in his youth. 10 year lay off is a big deal too.

Never EVER rely solely on a puncher's chance. That is not a good enough reason to go in the ring.

Tyson should have NEVER fought Lewis after Holy 2 - making 17 million hardly made a dent to the IRS - he should have given up trying to pay IRS rather than get beat up for nothing.

Yes, in pure fantasy, we can have Tyson listen to us. In reality, I'd be more confident in convincing Osama Bin Laden that America isn't so bad than to get Tyson to listen to me.
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Old 07-18-2007, 02:25 PM   #23
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Default Re: You are Mike Tysons trainer

I like a thread like this, because I always believe in boxing there is never any such thing as a 100% guaranteed every time success. Tyson winning may have been a long shot, but there are certainly ways in which to increase his chances which I think have been pointed out well here.

Hobgoblin makes an excellent point which I fully agree with - Tyson's right hand needs to be busy, post-jail he seemed to left hook his way in far too much. I also gave round 1 in Tyson-Holyfield I to Tyson, and Holyfield admitted in an interview that he was surprised by Mike's right hands since Tyson usually closed distance with lunging left hooks and jabs, not the right.

I thought one of the biggest problems with Tyson as he got older is that he was still trying to fight as he'd done as a younger man. Over time, both Holyfield and Lewis modified their in-ring style to compensate for the lessening of their youthful stamina and speed.

Mike still wanted to be throwing those multiple blasts to the body and head with both hands...and to be fair, he still could throw well in hard combinations (as in the first rounds against Nielsen and Williams for example). But he didn't have the tank to keep that up for long. So he'd fall back on big haymakers, instead of jabbing his way in and setting up the knockouts better.

Stonehands also details a way to deal with the other big problem for Tyson, and that's the mental side. It's a real biggie. Tyson showed huge determination to keep going through the battering, but in terms of self-belief that he could win the fight, I think that drained from that first hard uppercut in round 1 and was completely gone after the false KD in the 4th. Getting him at a confident peak, without falling into that "all I have to do is hit him once" trap, is essential. No doubt in my mind that a lot of Tyson's retinue did him no good whatsoever.
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Old 07-18-2007, 10:26 PM   #24
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Default Re: You are Mike Tysons trainer

My strategy would be to take him to the Catskills and let Kevin train him and id be the assistant trainer
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Old 07-18-2007, 11:03 PM   #25
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Default Re: You are Mike Tysons trainer

Quote:
Originally Posted by Ted Stickles
My strategy would be to take him to the Catskills and let Kevin train him and id be the assistant trainer
If you look at Rooney today - he needs a trainer himself

You raise a good point - but I wonder why dumbass Tyson never went back with Rooney. Till the second Holyfield fight, he had a lot of his physical assets intact. I suppose your idea won't work if it hasn't happened in so many years despite it being such an obvious decison.
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Old 07-18-2007, 11:17 PM   #26
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Default Re: You are Mike Tysons trainer

Work on keeping him active on the inside, to prevent Lewis's leaning tactics from taking as much of a toll. Tyson's low center of gravity, short arms, short range arsenal, and age would all tend to argue for him to pursue the inside game when it's offered to him, where touch and canny maneuvering are more important than blazing reflexes...and he definitely had the skills at one point early in his career.

His lack of focus on the inside was the chief reason why Lewis was able to beat and smother him. Take Lewis's advantage in this area away by drilling the inside game constantly, in addition to the strategies others had mentioned.
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Old 07-19-2007, 12:29 AM   #27
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Work on keeping him active on the inside, to prevent Lewis's leaning tactics from taking as much of a toll. Tyson's low center of gravity, short arms, short range arsenal, and age would all tend to argue for him to pursue the inside game when it's offered to him, where touch and canny maneuvering are more important than blazing reflexes...and he definitely had the skills at one point early in his career.

His lack of focus on the inside was the chief reason why Lewis was able to beat and smother him. Take Lewis's advantage in this area away by drilling the inside game constantly, in addition to the strategies others had mentioned.
But Tyson was never a very good inside fighter. He had the potential for it but that's another story. When clinched - most of the time he was very passive. Douglas won the fight by schooling him on the inside (too many people forget this as they keep remembering long range) and so did Holyfield. Tyson showed great inside fighting ability in round 5 against ATG Holy (so I guess he DID have the training too) but never continued with it, despite its apparent success. I just don't understand him. Of all his fights I've seen, I recall saying to myself that Tyson can fight well on the inside in only maybe three of them. He chose not to fight on the inside, he chose not to resist getting clinched, he chose not to resist getting moved around. I don't get it. How am I supposed to work with this guy?

Last edited by Prime 4 Prime; 03-15-2006 at 08:21 AM.
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Old 07-19-2007, 03:17 AM   #28
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Default Re: You are Mike Tysons trainer

Stoney,

After reading your inspiring post I feel like getting in the ring with Lewis myself. That is following easy KO victories over '67 Ali, '77 Holmes and '87 Tyson...

Quote:
Originally Posted by Stonehands89
Before training camp opens, I would take Tyson to visit Liston's lonely and weedy grave and read the epitaph ("a man"). Tyson looked at himself as a Liston prototype and is very aware of how Liston squandered his legacy with 2 lamentable and life-changing decisions (Clay -where he didn't train. Ali -where he took a dive). Tyson would be reminded daily that he can decide to destroy Lewis for his greatest win and launch himself into the greatness that Liston lost; Or, he can go the way of Liston and die miserably with dreams of what might have been.

I would push for a three month training camp -in Big Bear and the structure would be severe. He needs it. All of the thugs and mooches in his life would be banned under threat of being shot on site. There would be alot of film analysis. Dempsey-Willard, & Duran-Barkley would be watched and analyzed for 2 reasons. First, because Tyson loved both of them and second because they are studies in how to deal with superior size, reach, and strength.

It would also be critical to consider his emotional well-being and self-esteem issues -at least temporarily. How, a therapist? No. by discussing legacy -what it means, what it meant to the Legends that Tyson has always admired and emulated, and how he can save his ring legacy with one win. This one.

Tyson would have to train like he used to train -mentally, emotionally, and physically. The day would begin and the evening would end with discussion -about character, about legacy, about history. I'm running with him at 4.

I would have inspiring figures come by once a week or so for an hour. Duran. McCallum. Hagler. Julian Jackson. As many heavy-handed, never-say-die old-timers that I could find. Peter Marciano would offer a seminar about the determination and total self-belief of his brother, who was almost always outgunned. During the last weeks of camp, I'd bring in Rooney and/or Atlas to make piece and if Tyson was comfortable, one of them would play Ray Arcel to my Freddie Brown.

I'd get Tyson as close to 218 as he could while being at optimum strength. No music, no towel, no socks en route to the ring. Tyson would look as if it were 1988. He would feel as he did in his prime. He would be convinced that he has captured thunder and lightening like Zeus. And is only there to deliver it off of Lewis's susceptible chin.

Strategy. Tyson would be conditioned to start the first round strong. He would be told to win it. This to increase his confidence and force Lennox to think defensively (Tyson would be allowed to come forward. Which is critical to the plan). He would have to reclaim that elusivity and slip his way inside. Banging the body. If Lennox got hurt, then Tyson would be instructed to be aggressive in a controlled manner until he finished him. If Lennox was strong, he would decrease output but increase efficiency. Constant head movement, constant angles, stay at mid to close range where he would get close enough to the big man without getting leaned on or smothered. Shoot, but shoot carefully with brief combinations. Start in with overhands around round 5. No wild punches. Overhands only when they have a chance of landing.

Tyson greatest liability in the ring is in his head. All means to promote his self-belief would be utilized in the camp and between rounds. I'd tell him that the pain now is nothing -it will only bless the triumph. This is about

"who you are and the rest of your life."
"Nothing else matters."
"You are Beowulf. Dent his chin."
"Get closer, set up the shots and throw 'em short."

If things started getting bad and Tyson started falling apart, I'd see if I could sneak an ipod into his hear with Cus's voice talking about using fear as a hero should.
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Old 07-19-2007, 03:32 AM   #29
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Default Re: You are Mike Tysons trainer

Quote:
Originally Posted by hobgoblin
Tyson showed great inside fighting ability in round 5 against ATG Holy (so I guess he DID have the training too) but never continued with it, despite its apparent success. I just don't understand him. Of all his fights I've seen, I recall saying to myself that Tyson can fight well on the inside in only maybe three of them. He chose not to fight on the inside, he chose not to resist getting clinched, he chose not to resist getting moved around. I don't get it. How am I supposed to work with this guy?
Mike always frusrated his fans. Imagine how his trainer's felt? Tyson never listened to any of them, except Rooney.
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Old 07-19-2007, 07:13 AM   #30
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I do remember Richie Giachetti pleading with Mike to do this and do that, and Mike just sitting there with this "Yeah, right, fat boy. I'll do this my way" look on his face, heh.
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