Willie Limond was Definately Robbed

[Snorkel]

I don't see what the issue is. He was clearly well enough to fight and followed all the ref's instructions which is all he has to do.

[Vantage_West]

the kid didnt understand if he was alowed to saty on his knee or not.it happend to jerry quarry

[hitman_hatton1]

it was a controversial incident.

the ref was on 8 and khan went back down onto a knee.

instead of continuing the count, the referee just picked him up and told him to get on with it.

admittedly amir was complaining of a push and the main reason he went back down.

but rules are rules.

the ref controls the bout though, so there isn't much u can do about it.

[AllyT]

The neutral corner argument is bogus. This is only the case in amateur boxing where the referee counts 1 and will not commence counting until the opposing boxer retires to a neutral corner. It has absolutely no relevance to a BBBoC bout.

In this case the referee acted correctly at the beginning, clearing Limond out the way, he then looks to the timekeeper and correctly begins counting at 5.

He bottles it when Khan goes down for the second time and stops counting.

It is interesting to note that the pro Khan lobby on this issue prefer not to refer to the rules at all and seem to consider those who do to be some kind of cheat. This is a ridiculous position, to have such strong opinions without checking the facts.

The count is an exact number, 10 seconds precisely - FACT

The timekeeper is responsible for the count - FACT

The time taken to retreat to a neutral corner does not stop the count - FACT

The time between Khan hitting the canvas and finally rising was greater than 10 seconds – FACT

If you feel the need to counter this argument by all means do but for “fact’s sake” read the rules first.

There is indeed no controversy. The rules are clear. They were not obeyed, pure and simple.

[Strike]

I cannot believe this is still going on despite the video...WATCH the video.

The clock is at 2:02 when he is on the canvas. He is standing after the knee at 1:53. Even ignoring the confusion of the knee, the fact that the ref sent Limond to the other corner and of course ignoring the fact that in EVERY fight the refs count is what the boxer watchs, he is still on his feet within 10 seconds.

How can you possibly watch the video with the time in the corner and argue otherwise?

And Ally mate it was YOU who posted the BBBC rules regarding neutral corners and now you are claiming it only applies in amateur fights. That is not true.

Here is a link to the Queensbury Rules:

[url]********en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Boxing[/url]

And here is what it states on knockdowns:

"When a boxer is knocked-down, the other boxer must immediately cease fighting and move to the nearest neutral corner of the ring until the referee has either ruled a knockout or called for the fight to continue."

[AllyT]

Originally Posted by Strike

I cannot believe this is still going on despite the video...WATCH the video.

The clock is at 2:02 when he is on the canvas. He is standing after the knee at 1:53. Even ignoring the confusion of the knee, the fact that the ref sent Limond to the other corner and of course ignoring the fact that in EVERY fight the refs count is what the boxer watchs, he is still on his feet within 10 seconds.

How can you possibly watch the video with the time in the corner and argue otherwise?

And Ally mate it was YOU who posted the BBBC rules regarding neutral corners and now you are claiming it only applies in amateur fights. That is not true.

Here is a link to the Queensbury Rules:

[URL="********en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Boxing"]********en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Boxing[/URL]

And here is what it states on knockdowns:

"When a boxer is knocked-down, the other boxer must immediately cease fighting and move to the nearest neutral corner of the ring until the referee has either ruled a knockout or called for the fight to continue."

How can you possibly watch the video with the time in the corner and argue otherwise?

Like this:-

1 Khan is flat out at 2:04

[IMG]***********.leith-victoria-aac.co.uk./pc/gphcs/LimondKhan1.jpg[/IMG]


2. The Queensbury rules are of historical interest only. They may form the basis of today’s rules but they do not constitute today’s rules.

3. It does not say, either in the historical rules you quote, or in the relevant BBBoC rules, that the count is suspended pending the boxer going to a neutral corner.

4. The boxer does watch the referee who takes his cue from the time keeper, as stated in the rules.

5. The referee takes up the count at 5 on the timekeepers instructions as per the rules.


[IMG]***********.leith-victoria-aac.co.uk./pc/gphcs/LimondKhan5.jpg[/IMG]


6. The rules state clearly the time period allowed is ten seconds

(33) . . . must regain his feet unassisted within ten seconds.


7. The rules state that this is to be observed strictly

32 Should a Boxer go down to the floor as the result of a legitimate blow, the Timekeeper shall count off the seconds strictly in accordance with his watch.

8. The rules state that there is a Mandatory 8 count.

9. (33) . .1. A Boxer failing to continue with a Contest after the intervals specified above shall not be awarded any points for that round but will have 10 points deducted from his score. His opponent shall receive ten points and be declared the winner.


10. and out!

[IMG]***********.leith-victoria-aac.co.uk./pc/gphcs/LimondKhan11.jpg[/IMG]

I would not have posted under the title unless I was convinced of the truth of it.

Willie Limond was definately robbed - FACT.

[LeadLeftHook]

"5. The referee takes up the count at 5 on the timekeepers instructions as per the rules.


[IMG]***********.leith-victoria-aac.co.uk./pc/gphcs/LimondKhan5.jpg[/IMG]

6. The rules state clearly the time period allowed is ten seconds

(33) . . . must regain his feet unassisted within ten seconds."


At 1:59, he's up unassisted withing 10 seconds! According to the rules a fighter is ONLY considered "down" when 3.32.1 is satisfied as defined below. If you go by their definition of "down" the fighter in this case cannot be considered down at 1:59.

3.32.1 triggers 3.32 i.e. at this point 3.32.1 does not apply! Which technically means that 3.32 cannot apply at this point i.e. there can be no count without "down" being satisfied and that the count should have been reset when he took the knee again at 1:54!

[AllyT]

Originally Posted by LeadLeftHook

"5. The referee takes up the count at 5 on the timekeepers instructions as per the rules.


[IMG]***********.leith-victoria-aac.co.uk./pc/gphcs/LimondKhan5.jpg[/IMG]

6. The rules state clearly the time period allowed is ten seconds

(33) . . . must regain his feet unassisted within ten seconds."


At 1:59, he's up unassisted withing 10 seconds! According to the rules a fighter is ONLY considered "down" when 3.32.1 is satisfied as defined below. If you go by their definition of "down" the fighter in this case cannot be considered down at 1:59.

3.32.1 triggers 3.32 i.e. at this point 3.32.1 does not apply! Which technically means that 3.32 cannot apply at this point i.e. there can be no count without "down" being satisfied and that the count should have been reset when he took the knee again at 1:54!

If you are claiming this was a 10:7 round it was not. The boxer has to rise and satisfy the referee that he is fit to continue and he must do so within the allotted ten seconds. By going back down within the time he plainly is not fit to continue.

I have seen some wierd and wonderful refereeing decisions over the years but none so bizar as to satisfy your description. This would turn boxing into a disturbing version of musical chairs.

[LeadLeftHook]

Originally Posted by AllyT

If you are claiming this was a 10:7 round it was not. The boxer has to rise and satisfy the referee that he is fit to continue and he must do so within the allotted ten seconds. By going back down within the time he plainly is not fit to continue.

I have seen some wierd and wonderful refereeing decisions over the years but none so bizar as to satisfy your description. This would turn boxing into a disturbing version of musical chairs.

Yes prescisely it should've been a 10-7 round if you go by the rules as stated in [URL="***********.bbbofc.com/documentation.php"]***********.bbbofc.com/documentation.php[/URL] . As per my intrerpretation there is nothing the rules of BBBoC that specifically address the situation we saw on Sat night. Since you are refering to the rules, I am also referring to the same rules except saying that the count should have been reset as per the rules. If a fighter chooses to play musical chair, he stands to lose a point each time and the fight and has nothing to gain.

When you say that going back down within the time of 10 seconds is plainly not fit to continue, it isnt an intrepretation of the rule, its your subjective belief not the referees.


I'm merely stating that even if you go by the rules of BBBoC Limond did not win.

[Strike]

Ally - I think you are being totally disingenuous or blinded by bias. When have you EVER seen a count start at the second the fighter touches the canvas? At that moment Limond was falling over him and they were a tangled mess.

There is ALWAYS a brief delay be it a second or two before the count starts. Or do you think the count starts as the fighter is falling, the moment skin first touches canvas?
It never happens like that....listen lets be honest, Khan only even took the second knee under confusion, he was clearly instructed to and then got straight back up anyway.

Rather than using a free frame of him the split second he is hitting the canvas, look at the video in real time. That free frame does not show the fact that the clock switches to 2:03 immediately, in any reasonable analysis the count starts at 2:03 at the earliest and that is pushing it.

We could go through numerous fights throughout history where the neutral corner is significant, in fact almost all the major fights of the past few years that spring to mind.

If Khan had wanted to cheat he could have spat his gum shield out.

Anyway I wont change your opinion, but no way was Limond robbed, he did well, Khan got up and he didn't manage to finish it.

[Strike]

Watch the video, there is NO WAY the count could start at 2:04, the clock literally goes to 2:03 the moment he hits the ground, just as he lands with Limond tumbling over him it is at 2:04 and goes straight to 2:03.

By a HUGE push you could have the count starting at 2:03, and yet this would be very unlikely in any fight and would be holding this fight to a standard not seen in any other fights of recent memory. And yet even then, Khan is back on his feet from the knee at 1:54......a maximum of 9 seconds.

Thank **** you people were not in charge of fights like Gatti-Ward.

[DamonD]

I'd rather give Limond credit for a battling effort than this weak-sauce conspiracy "he was robbed!" stuff...cheapens it for me, reminds me of the bad taste about Douglas-Tyson.

Limond had his big chance, there was a load of time left in the round, and he failed. He should've been the stronger in the next round, and he failed there too. Brutally put, he lost the fight because Khan was ultimately better than him, at withstanding his attempts at finishing the fight and fighting back under pressure.

I would certainly like to see Limond fight again, he looked well-schooled and tight both attacking and defending, and I would be upset of rumours about his forced retirement are true. But he was not robbed in this fight.

[AllyT]

Originally Posted by Strike

Ally - I think you are being totally disingenuous or blinded by bias. When have you EVER seen a count start at the second the fighter touches the canvas? At that moment Limond was falling over him and they were a tangled mess.

There is ALWAYS a brief delay be it a second or two before the count starts. Or do you think the count starts as the fighter is falling, the moment skin first touches canvas?
It never happens like that....listen lets be honest, Khan only even took the second knee under confusion, he was clearly instructed to and then got straight back up anyway.

Rather than using a free frame of him the split second he is hitting the canvas, look at the video in real time. That free frame does not show the fact that the clock switches to 2:03 immediately, in any reasonable analysis the count starts at 2:03 at the earliest and that is pushing it.

We could go through numerous fights throughout history where the neutral corner is significant, in fact almost all the major fights of the past few years that spring to mind.

If Khan had wanted to cheat he could have spat his gum shield out.

Anyway I wont change your opinion, but no way was Limond robbed, he did well, Khan got up and he didn't manage to finish it.

You, may call me “disingenuous”, I may call you “discourteous”.

you may wish consider that, since I

a. currently act as an amateur boxing, judge, and
b. work in the financial industry, my honesty is important to me.

I might also therefore be “litigious”.

The truth is I initially had no strong opinions about the bout. I then heard the complaints regarding the initial knock down. As an amateur boxing judge, I thought that before coming to a conclusion I would like to see a copy of the rules. Therefore I came on to what appears to be one of the busier boxing sites to ask what the rules were. I was rather disappointed to discover that knowledge of the rules among fans appeared to be somewhere between low and non existent. Therefore I looked the rules up myself.

Having read, and I believe understood, the rules I watched the KD again and, honestly, came, honestly, to my current conclusion.

I then presented my views in an open and honest manner. I believe that I have genuinely tried to explore the issue and had any counter argument come my way that was worth further research or consideration, I would happily pursued this. This simply has not happened.

All I read is a collection of ‘factoids’ followed by retrenchments whenever they are exposed as such.

For example tried to imply Khan went down at 2:02. Now that that has been exposed you simply want to move the goalposts.

You keep saying that the referee does not start the count right away, when the rules clearly state that the time keeper commences the count as soon as the boxer hits the canvas. The ref then takes his cue from the timekeeper once the boxers are separated, there is no delay in the actual count. You claim the ref starts the count only when Limond retires to a neutral corner and starts at ‘2’. My second screen cap shows the referee beginning the count; he is clearly indicating ‘5’ after checking with the timekeeper. You claim the count does not start when Khan is flat out is only correct insomuch as it should have started earlier when any part of his body other than the soles of his feet hit the canvas. It also should have carried on past 1:54 until he rose. I have simply shown a ten second window where there can be no debate about his position. He was down both before and after this window, and should therefore have been counted out. If someone with enough knowledge can convince me otherwise, then so be it, but all I seem to be getting is hot air, combined with strongly held views that lack substance.

I accept that it is somewhat academic and Khan is the victor and that is water under the bridge.

I am not accusing Amir Khan of cheating.

I accept that, given the initial KD was not awarded to Limond, Khan came back well and within the confines of that situation deserved his win.

I accept that worse decisions have been made but that does not alter the fact that it was a bad decision.

[Team_Calzaghe]

Originally Posted by AllyT

Well believe it.
I absolutely do not see your point, and frankly I think this type of attitude encourages corruption.

This is not the small print, it is a clear definition of how the count should proceed. There is no other part of the rules that refers to the count. That's it!

Firstly it makes clear that it is the timekeeper not the referee that is responsible for keeping the count the referee is only announcing it.

Secondly it makes it very clear that the period is ten seconds according to the timekeepers watch.

Finally it makes clear that this time limit is to be enforced strictly.

When there is so much BS flying around this and other forums as people make up rules to suit their own argument I think it is a bit odd that I should be criticised for being the only person to take the trouble to find out what the rules are.



This bout included a Mandatory 8 count and you are correct by dropping at 8 Khaqn showed that he was not ready to continue and the bout should have been stopped at that point. The fact that he failed to rise by 10 and subsequently failed to follow the refs instrucrtions only make this error more glaring.

There are none so blind as those who will not see.

AllyT,

I have mixed feeling about this fight, YES the referee was sympathetic to Amir Khan and gave him a chance. If the fight were in Scotland with a Scottish referee then I doubt the referee would have been as sympathetic and Amir Khan would have been counted out.

However, equally Limond's response following the count was poor. Willie had shaken Khan to his boots and Khan was there for the taking but Willie just lacked the determination to find that extra strength and courage to finish him.

I really would like to see a re-match and I'm sure if Willie wanted one he could get one.

I am interested to see what happens with Amir Khan, every boxer with an ounce of bottle knows they can beat Amir Khan as long as the connect well on his chin.

I think if Willie had a rematch with Amir I'm sure he wouldn't hold back so much and would be using his right frequently.

Regards,


John

[AllyT]

Originally Posted by Team_Calzaghe

AllyT,

I have mixed feeling about this fight, YES the referee was sympathetic to Amir Khan and gave him a chance. If the fight were in Scotland with a Scottish referee then I doubt the referee would have been as sympathetic and Amir Khan would have been counted out.

However, equally Limond's response following the count was poor. Willie had shaken Khan to his boots and Khan was there for the taking but Willie just lacked the determination to find that extra strength and courage to finish him.

I really would like to see a re-match and I'm sure if Willie wanted one he could get one.

I am interested to see what happens with Amir Khan, every boxer with an ounce of bottle knows they can beat Amir Khan as long as the connect well on his chin.

I think if Willie had a rematch with Amir I'm sure he wouldn't hold back so much and would be using his right frequently.

Regards,


John

No real arguement here. My point is about the application of the rules at that point in time.

The fight itself was a *******. I cant take anything away from Khan in the sense that having been rescued by the referee he battled back bravely to retake the bout. He may have been a little lucky with Limond sustaining a perforated ear drum which would have rendered him unable to defend himself. That said, not Khan's problem. I have no issue with Amir Khan but I do have an issue with the referee.

I do not think Khan's camp will be keen on a rematch, however If Willie dusts himself down and gets on with it he may be able to become the mandatory challanger for his old title.

I think some UK slang has failed an "American naughty word blocker" The word is "KRACKER". That I did not expect!!!!