Floyd Mayweather Jr. vs. Ray Robinson

[Hands of Iron]

Originally Posted by lora

I'd be more likely to say Zab Judah is shite, rather than coming off a loss.

And why only 'title fights' taken into consideration? Aside from Robinson's record at 147 blowing Floyd's off the map. Or is that the reason?

[ushvinder]

Originally Posted by Waynegrade

Not sure I agree.. Beating Cervantes at 17,Palomino, Duran fighting SRL hrad and beating Duran, doesn`t qualify as overrated... Shaky chin , yes. But still on historical accomplishment, great.

Um no, benitez was as inconsistent as they come, the reason he doesnt catch flak for it is because he fought the fabulous fab 4 guys. He lost to bruce curry and got a gift, was shot past the age of 24 and brutally beaten up by davey moore. A hall of famer, but not an all time great. I thought everyone dismisses his win over duran and says duran was past it, now you want to treat it like a world beater win, double standard, yeah i think so. Oscar De la hoya accomplished more than benitez and Donald Curry would beat him head to head. Only difference is curry didnt fight the fab 4, so he doesnt have the 'fame'. Donald's younger brother beat wilfredo, i have no problem seeing curry beat him.

Oscar always gets hate for losing big fights. Well wilfredo lost his big fights and then he was taken out by davey moore. If anyone was a choker in big fights, its benitez.

[Hands of Iron]

Leonard did fight a particularly good version though.

[Waynegrade]

Originally Posted by ushvinder

Um no, benitez was as inconsistent as they come, the reason he doesnt catch flak for it is because he fought the fabulous fab 4 guys. He lost to bruce curry and got a gift, was shot past the age of 24 and brutally beaten up by davey moore. A hall of famer, but not an all time great. I thought everyone dismisses his win over duran and says duran was past it, now you want to treat it like a world beater win, double standard, yeah i think so. Oscar De la hoya accomplished more than benitez and Donald Curry would beat him head to head. Only difference is curry didnt fight the fab 4, so he doesnt have the 'fame'. Donald's younger brother beat wilfredo, i have no problem seeing curry beat him.

Oscar always gets hate for losing big fights. Well wilfredo lost his big fights and then he was taken out by davey moore. If anyone was a choker in big fights, its benitez.

Duran wasn`t THAT Duran, but he still was a top class fighter... Benitez was done early. Started young, too young and flamed out early. As for Bruce Curry/Bentiez. Wake up! Clay had his Jones, Foreman had his Peralta,Tyson his Tillis. All great young fighters have THAT tough fight coming up, where they learn from it and become a better fighter for it.Besides boxing guru, what foes this have to do with PBF/SRR ????

[ushvinder]

Originally Posted by Waynegrade

Duran wasn`t THAT Duran, but he still was a top class fighter... Benitez was done early. Started young, too young and flamed out early. As for Bruce Curry/Bentiez. Wake up! Clay had his Jones, Foreman had his Peralta,Tyson his Tillis. All great young fighters have THAT tough fight coming up, where they learn from it and become a better fighter for it.Besides boxing guru, what foes this have to do with PBF/SRR ????

There's a difference between having a tough fight and getting a gift decision. Wilfred Benitez is below de la hoya on my all time lists, very overrated fighter.

[Waynegrade]

Originally Posted by ushvinder

There's a difference between having a tough fight and getting a gift decision. Wilfred Benitez is below de la hoya on my all time lists, very overrated fighter.

Boxing historians disagree with you ... As for DeLahoya, I thnk he was an awesome fighter. You need to relax when it comes to benitez... No one is calling him the best, but in terms of historical accomplishment, what he did by beating a damn good fighter in Kid Pambele at 17 is significant ! And beating Palomino. DElahoya would have had some issues with prime Beitez, look at the problems he had with Whitaker. The Benitez that beat Palomino, would pose some problems...Again, this post is about THE greatest of them all, Robinson !

[ushvinder]

Originally Posted by Waynegrade

Boxing historians disagree with you ... As for DeLahoya, I thnk he was an awesome fighter. You need to relax when it comes to benitez... No one is calling him the best, but in terms of historical accomplishment, what he did by beating a damn good fighter in Kid Pambele at 17 is significant ! And beating Palomino. DElahoya would have had some issues with prime Beitez, look at the problems he had with Whitaker. The Benitez that beat Palomino, would pose some problems...Again, this post is about THE greatest of them all, Robinson !

Which boxing historians, the ones stuck in the past? He stunk the joint out against cervantes, hardly a dominant win. He also drew with harold weston. Oscar dwarfs him in longevity and has the better resume. Oscar fought close fights with ike quartey and pernell, not losing a gift to bruce curry. Where is wilfredo on your all time list by the way, hes barely top 100 for me.

[Flea Man]

Ushvinder never fails to amaze.

[Waynegrade]

Originally Posted by Flea Man

Ushvinder never fails to amaze.

Pretty comical right !

[Nightcrawler]

Originally Posted by ushvinder

Which boxing historians, the ones stuck in the past? He stunk the joint out against cervantes, hardly a dominant win. He also drew with harold weston. Oscar dwarfs him in longevity and has the better resume. Oscar fought close fights with ike quartey and pernell, not losing a gift to bruce curry. Where is wilfredo on your all time list by the way, hes barely top 100 for me.

sorry to join the party so late. and you ranking oscar above benitez?

[NoNeck]

Originally Posted by Nightcrawler

sorry to join the party so late. and you ranking oscar above benitez?

I definitely rate Oscar above Benitez. There's a gap between them.

[Nightcrawler]

Originally Posted by NoNeck

I definitely rate Oscar above Benitez. There's a gap between them.

interesting can you elaborate why?

[NoNeck]

Originally Posted by Nightcrawler

interesting can you elaborate why?

He sustained his greatness for a longer period and over a larger range of weightclasses. Both fought great fighters, winning some and losing some. Benitez fought the harder ones in Hearns and Leonard, but lost clearly to. Oscar fought more of them and fared better in general, either winning or losing controversially. Oscar's depth sets him apart.

[Nightcrawler]

Originally Posted by NoNeck

He sustained his greatness for a longer period and over a larger range of weightclasses. Both fought great fighters, winning some and losing some. Benitez fought the harder ones in Hearns and Leonard, but lost clearly to. Oscar fought more of them and fared better in general, either winning or losing controversially. Oscar's depth sets him apart.

by your criteria, that makes sense. thanks for elaborating. the one thing is, benitez often looked brilliant even in his losses. oscar looked good in "losing" to trinidad and even mosley 1. oscar does have a depth to his resume from 130-160, fighting tremendous opposition really from 135-154.

two things set benitez a bit apart for me:

1)oscar never (imo) looked BRILLIANT. benitez's skill is evident in film. oscar was very very good, i have just never been in awe of his skills

2)benitez has looked a bit better against top, top opposition. Watching him dismantle duran is amazing, add that to palimino and cervantes and that is a fine record against pretty elite guys. Sure he lost to hearns and leonard but the consensus is, they were pretty close. on the flip side, his prime was short and when he started losing his skills, it went downhill QUICK

for oscar, no one really counts his loss to tito, the mosley fight was close and he has quartey, vargas and a past prime chavez on his resume to. pretty damn good. oscar was never dominated until hopkins, in a silly money fight and by the time pac got to him he was shot.

closer comparison than I felt at first glance, have to give it some thought

[ushvinder]

Originally Posted by Nightcrawler

sorry to join the party so late. and you ranking oscar above benitez?

Yes i do, better resume and far greater longevity. I reward oscar for being competitive with floyd at age 34, benitez was a nobody by the time he was 27-28. For all time lists i look at overall career, not ingore shortcoming because someone might be a fighter from an era that everyone loves.