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Old 07-20-2007, 11:16 AM   #1
cross_trainer
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Default MMA: Drifting away from its original purpose?

When the early UFC's came around, they demonstrated to martial artists all over the world what worked and what didn't. More importantly, they showed how various disciplines stacked up against each other, and why.

Although I love the fact that MMA is becoming a regular sport now, it's a bit regrettable that you see fewer style vs. style matchups. Some will say that this is part of the evolution of the sport--that styles are a thing of the past, and today's fighters are far more skilled.

...But I don't think that it's been entirely proved yet. Allow me to explain: In recent years, there have been several elite level K-1 guys, BJJ guys, SAMBO guys, and wrestlers competing in MMA, thereby proving that it is an extremely legitimate sport. However, MMA champions do not routinely take on the best from major combat sports other than these. I would like to see:


* Prime gold medalist judoka (Yoshida was a bit past it, and only one example)
* Current Lumpinee or Rajadamnern Muay Thai champions
* Current world San Shou champions
* Elite-level boxers with some takedown defense
* Champions in other, more obscure combat sports--anything from Shodokan (full contact) Aikido to Koryu Jujutsu styles, Bando, various gongfu systems, Cornish wrestling, etc.



In short, I would like the UFC/PRIDE champions/contenders to occasionally prove that they are still the best fighters in the world rather than just the best in the MMA talent pool by participating in occasional challenge matches against champions in other disciplines.

The MMA champions will, in all likelihood, dominate their opposition. But this will serve to keep MMA honest, and prevent it from creating its own insular community much as boxing and wrestling did a century ago. It will also keep it in closer touch with innovations taking place in other martial arts disciplines, and will lead to greater cross-pollination.



Thoughts?
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Old 07-20-2007, 11:34 AM   #2
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Default Re: MMA: Drifting away from its original purpose?

I've thought the same a few times but im not going to knock how the sport has evolved. We are experienceing the impact of practically new martial art forms being created in order for fighters to become the best possible fighters they can be.
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Old 07-20-2007, 11:53 AM   #3
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Default Re: MMA: Drifting away from its original purpose?

Quote:
Originally Posted by cross_trainer

* Prime gold medalist judoka (Yoshida was a bit past it, and only one example)
* Current Lumpinee or Rajadamnern Muay Thai champions
* Current world San Shou champions
* Elite-level boxers with some takedown defense
* Champions in other, more obscure combat sports--anything from Shodokan (full contact) Aikido to Koryu Jujutsu styles, Bando, various gongfu systems, Cornish wrestling, etc.
hmm
*no idea on the judoka other than yoshida, and i guess would parisyan be and example of this or nakamura?
*for muay thai we saw how good a American champ muay thai guy could do in kit cope. . . . . .hahaha jk
*for the elite-level boxer we woulda saw it if sean sherk accepted cintron's challenge to a fight since cintron is welterweight boxing champ and wrestled in college
*and for the last one I think these kinds of fights have been made just the guy lost at the local level so we the public never really saw, but i do want to see cornish wrestling in action


and i think the last style vs style match i can remember was rulon vs yoshida which unlike most people i really liked
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Old 07-20-2007, 12:12 PM   #4
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Default Re: MMA: Drifting away from its original purpose?

I really don't give a shit about style vs style. The impetus is on those fighters who fight only in a particular style to prove that it works by entering mixed martial arts. Saying otherwise is foolish.
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Old 07-20-2007, 12:24 PM   #5
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Default Re: MMA: Drifting away from its original purpose?

There have been top level athletes competing from other discplines you just don't hear about them
Stefan Leko- K1 contender, got steamrolled by b level mma guys
Semmy Schilt-Current K1 World Champ had some success but lost to the best fighters
Pavel Nastula-world class judoka(olympic gold I think) lost to the top guys
Chung Le- sanshou practioner fighting in smaller shows but is somewhat succesful
Yoshida/Nakamura- world class judoka both are contenders

The reason you don't see a lot of single style practioners is because it doesn't work. You have to be able to fight in every position to have any kind of success. Leko is a good example he still is a world class kickboxer, but when he fought in Pride he gotten taken down and submitted in every fight (I think his 3 fights add up to maybe 2 minutes).

When you mention a boxer with good takedown defence that is not a boxer anymore but a mixed martial artist.

As for the other traditional fighting styles most of them are not effective in mma (Muay Thai not included) for various reasons. If there is a kung fu fighter that feels he can win in a mma ring all he has to do is go and fight, but this doesn't happen I wonder why.
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Old 07-20-2007, 12:41 PM   #6
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Default Re: MMA: Drifting away from its original purpose?

Quote:
Originally Posted by Donut62
I really don't give a shit about style vs style. The impetus is on those fighters who fight only in a particular style to prove that it works by entering mixed martial arts. Saying otherwise is foolish.
Quite so--the onus is on these guys. That is why the UFC (de facto the only major organization out there) should allow them the opportunity if they express the willingness. If a fighter like Cintron stepped up to the plate (as he appeared ready to do), they should have accepted.

To its credit, Pride drafted Nastula and Yoshida, but both of these guys were past their best. The truth is that we don't know how the best judoka in the world would do in MMA--we know how some very good, past-prime ones fared, and in general they did well.

Really, the UFC could greatly increase its audience in other countries if it defeated the local martial arts champions under MMA rules. Its few remaining critics would be stifled as well.
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Old 07-20-2007, 12:41 PM   #7
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Default Re: MMA: Drifting away from its original purpose?

If you take something like the UFC literaly then it is supposed to be about who the ultimate fighter is. The UFC in the beginning was far more pure than it is now, what with no weight classes and few rules. It was more honest in a sense. The UFC today is a sports franchise with all the advantages and disadvantages that brings. The styles are becoming unified into a 'MMA style'. Indeed, the rules even suit this MMA style. This is partly though because fighters have had to learn certain styles to remain competitive. The most obvious example of this is the need for strikers to learn a ground game or at least some skills to avoid being taken to the ground.

So yes, UFC and MMA in general has shifted away from the original purpose. Styles v style fights have become less and less meaningful as most intelligent MA's will pick things that work from other styles anyway. There are very few examples of pure styles that never evolve. In the past styles that never evolved soon become obsolete and obviously styles that didn't work on the battlefield were not passed on as their practioners were usually dead.
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Old 07-20-2007, 12:57 PM   #8
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Default Re: MMA: Drifting away from its original purpose?

Thats true, fighters use to train in individual styles and then come to MMA and then adapt and learn new things.......but now people are training in the specific 'MMA style' look how many MMA gyms are popping up everywhere.

Traditional single style gyms will no doubt take a massive hit with the upsurge of MMA.
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Old 07-20-2007, 01:13 PM   #9
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Default Re: MMA: Drifting away from its original purpose?

Cross Trainer what you suggest is not plausible.ALL those above said sports have diffrent rules with diffrent restrictions. There good at there respective fields which doesnt neccesarily translate into being a great mixed martial artist. The sport HAD to evolve in order for its fighters to be succesful by cross training in diffrent disciplines. Just because one style beats another style doesnt by default mean that the winning style is better.

Nastula was one of the best Judoka`s on the planet along with Yoshida who had an amazing winning streak in Judo competitions.But Nastula got chocked by Fedors brother, TKO`ed by Nog and subbed by Barnett and only has 1 win in MMA.That doesnt mean Judoka`s arent good in MMA it simply means his skill set wasnt diversified enough to compete. The same can be said of Yoshida who has fought some of MMA`s best winning and loosing.
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Old 07-20-2007, 01:31 PM   #10
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Default Re: MMA: Drifting away from its original purpose?

Quote:
Originally Posted by scurlaruntings
Cross Trainer what you suggest is not plausible.ALL those above said sports have diffrent rules with diffrent restrictions. There good at there respective fields which doesnt neccesarily translate into being a great mixed martial artist. The sport HAD to evolve in order for its fighters to be succesful by cross training in diffrent disciplines. Just because one style beats another style doesnt by default mean that the winning style is better.

Nastula was one of the best Judoka`s on the planet along with Yoshida who had an amazing winning streak in Judo competitions.But Nastula got chocked by Fedors brother, TKO`ed by Nog and subbed by Barnett and only has 1 win in MMA.That doesnt mean Judoka`s arent good in MMA it simply means his skill set wasnt diversified enough to compete. The same can be said of Yoshida who has fought some of MMA`s best winning and loosing.
Neither Nastula nor Yoshida were the best judoka around at the time, though. Nastula was almost a decade away from his last world championship, yet he still managed to give Nogueira and Barnett (especially the latter) significant trouble. Judo is huge in Japan, and they have already managed to bring Yoshida and Nakamura into Pride--surely it would not be too difficult to do the same with other Judoka, given significant financial inducements. Rulon Gardner has, of course, already participated in a Pride event...and I suspect that the UFC or Pride have enough money to tempt the top Thai athletes.

It would, if nothing else, give the UFC/Pride organization even greater clout and publicity in the Martial Arts community than it already has (and it already has quite a bit).
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Old 07-20-2007, 02:58 PM   #11
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Default Re: MMA: Drifting away from its original purpose?

that would be great but if they brought it back to the original rules everything goes except eye gouging then the Muy thai champions woud do really well
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Old 07-20-2007, 07:33 PM   #12
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Default Re: MMA: Drifting away from its original purpose?

Quote:
Originally Posted by younghypnotiq
that would be great but if they brought it back to the original rules everything goes except eye gouging then the Muy thai champions woud do really well
Care to explain why that would help them? There would be no rounds for them to wait out to be stood up, no standups from the ref, and once on the ground they could be headbutted. Dirty moves work both ways, so thats kind of a moot point, if anything they would be in a worse position to use dirty moves since they would be on bottom.

Current rules are better for thai fighters than vale tudo rules.
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Old 07-20-2007, 07:41 PM   #13
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Default Re: MMA: Drifting away from its original purpose?

I think the offer would be out there for most of the people you have mentioned, at least the top American athletes, I just think they realize at this point that they would need to give up a fair amount of time in their given sport, which they clearly love, to get ready for an MMA fight, and when they do that they would fall from the top of their original sport most likely.

On the other hand they could leave once they have attained the pinnacle, but by then they would usually already be pretty close to past their prime in their respective sport and so far behind the learning curve if they lost in MMA skeptics wouldn't be convinced and would fall back to saying "well if they had started earlier..." which puts us in our current situation. Plus alot of athletes just don't want to fight MMA, for whatever reason they may have.

I would love to occasionally see a top from different sports thrown in simply because they are so amazing at what they do and it gives them a different stage to perform on. What would be interesting is round up top representatives from each sport and let them fight MMA.
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Old 07-20-2007, 09:00 PM   #14
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Default Re: MMA: Drifting away from its original purpose?

Quote:
Originally Posted by younghypnotiq
that would be great but if they brought it back to the original rules everything goes except eye gouging then the Muy thai champions woud do really well....

....at getting head butted into oblivion by big wrestlers.
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Old 07-20-2007, 09:49 PM   #15
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Default Re: MMA: Drifting away from its original purpose?

the problem with getting top guys at their respected combat or martial art is because to be "called a top level guy", you still have to compete. and also certain things work and certain things dont work from every art. a top boxer no matter what is gonna have a stance thats not well suited for mma, judo players might get mui tai'd into death by a stonger opponent just as bjj guys get ground and pounded by some stronger wrestlers.

pride did at least get gold medalist to compete but you didnt really see rulon wrestling his guy down because we are in the information age and fighters are studying their opponents or training with other world class atheletes.

the kit kope stephon the blitz leko and semmy referense was a good one(oh yea duane bang ludwig). now if any of theses dude were in a straight up kick boxing match with any mma fighter theyll win but they were never givin a chance to use their craft.

i dont like to use the term mixed martial arts when talking of the old days of ufc. it was more like martial art vs. martial art, now at the same time these were going on we had VALE TUDO events going on in brazil that are more like what we know of today as mma.
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